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CKA Uber
CKA Uber
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 7:32 pm
 


OPP OPP:

Greed, selfishnes and misstrust is not human traits by design.


Unfortunately it is part of human make up.

It exhibits itself on all side of the political spectrum. Well intentioned pipe dreams of a Utopian society will always be that, just pipe dreams.


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CKA Uber
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 7:50 pm
 


Pseudonym Pseudonym:
Very true. The only way capitalism itself can actually function at all is if there are strong guarantees on personal property and tolerable levels of corruption. The reason government is almost always a dirty word to conservatives, however, at least down here, is because government has vastly overstepped its boundaries. I have a good P.J. O'Rourke essay on the subject I could link if you care to read it. I believe it is an excellent explanation of conservatism and how conservative governments should behave.


I would agree it has overstepped its bounds, but probably not for the same reasons as you. I think things like wars of choice (as opposed to wars to protect your nationaol integrity) are an example of government overstepping its bounds. There's nothing in the Constotution about conquering countries that are not democratic. And I think that banning behviour that, though it may be injurious to the indiviudal, is not very much of a risk to society in general is government overstepping its bounds.

I'm interested how stronger guaranetees on private property would have helped with the current finanical crisis though. Also, private property is all well and good, but what happens when property rights can't reasonably be assinged (such as in the case of air)? Doesn't the goverment have a role to play then?

I'd be interetsed in your link too.


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CKA Elite
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 7:52 pm
 


http://www.buildfreedom.com/tribute/o'r ... plain.html


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CKA Elite
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 8:11 pm
 


Zipperfish Zipperfish:
I would agree it has overstepped its bounds, but probably not for the same reasons as you. I think things like wars of choice (as opposed to wars to protect your nationaol integrity) are an example of government overstepping its bounds. There's nothing in the Constotution about conquering countries that are not democratic. And I think that banning behviour that, though it may be injurious to the indiviudal, is not very much of a risk to society in general is government overstepping its bounds.


I'll accept that. That merely brings us down to disagreements over those specific issues, rather than some philosophical divide.

Zipperfish Zipperfish:
I'm interested how stronger guaranetees on private property would have helped with the current finanical crisis though. Also, private property is all well and good, but what happens when property rights can't reasonably be assinged (such as in the case of air)? Doesn't the goverment have a role to play then?

Careful, careful. I did not say that guarantees on private property were connected to the current financial crisis. Those guarantees are just a primary component that allows capitalism to work. I am not a financial expert, but I think that we are all aware that bad lending, derivatives, and other such things led to the crisis. There would be a justified role for government in intervening to stop this sort of crisis, but they failed to do so. Attribute that to your politician of choice.

I should also probably specify that I am indeed not in favor of pure capitalism. People can be approximated as rational, self-interested beings in economic theory, but in reality are not completely so. There will eventually be a reason for government to intervene, whether that be to break up trusts, regulate pollution, or what have you. My belief is simply that this intervention should be minimized, since the more that government does, the more it tries to do, the more it can screw up the system. Think of an engine that runs smoothly, but needs a kick every now and then to fix it. You don't go around beating it with a crowbar when it is working just fine.(Woo! Metaphor!) Is that a bit clearer?

Also, there are things the free market cannot do, such as deal with air. We most certainly agree that government must deal with those things, although we probably disagree on what will fall under that category.
Zipperfish Zipperfish:
I also read that earlier post you made about discrimination and worked on harder than you do on most posts and liked it. I appreciate the work you did there.

Why thank you. I usually don't write quite so much, but this is an interesting topic.


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CKA Elite
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 10:38 am
 


Pseudonym Pseudonym:
OPP OPP:
Pseudonym Pseudonym:
A socialist utopia will be possible when they kill off the sense of self-interest present in all beings.


Self interest is to preserve and defend a healthy society.

Self-interest is the desire to preserve and defend one's self and one's own. Pure socialism requires you to subsume your own needs and wants to the whole, which will not occur on a large enough scale to be viable. Semi-socialist systems have been seen to function for a while though. The efficacy of such systems is an entirely different debate, however.


Not if you enforce socialist ideals just as you would any other laws.
By laws, regulations, a transparant government and enough government institutions that combat corruption we could achieve a functioning socialist society with minimum risk of becoming subjects to a despot or an elite.


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Forum Junkie
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 26, 2008 4:49 pm
 


The utopia of both capitalism and socialism is an impossibility. However given the end result of capitalist countries vs socialist/communist, can anyone argue that capitalism has the upper hand currently.

Capitalism is far from perfect but given the choice, I would pick a capitalist country such as Canada over a socialist one such as Cuba any day.

Cubans may have healthcare but they are still starving at the moment.


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CKA Super Elite
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 26, 2008 10:22 pm
 


It's a miracle that this somehow was print worthy. Wow.


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