[andyt]

$1:

Q What do you think went wrong with this case?

A People put a lot of effort into this trial, and for it to crash in flames like this is just astounding. I think the blame can only be on these complainants. So I can only say that these complainants deliberately, or very recklessly, withheld this information from the Crown and police. I mean these [women] are not simpletons. They wish for their mistakes to be seen as naïveté, or nobody asked me that question, well it sounds an awful lot like Bill Clinton and his problem.

http://news.nationalpost.com/toronto/wh ... n-ghomeshi

[DrCaleb]

Thanos Thanos:

Probably not, considering that the Crown had more than enough time to thoroughly examine the statements that were being made and chose on their own to move forward with the charges. This is a prosecutors botch altogether. Going back at the complainants after being made to look like idiots by Ghomeshi's defense team would be petty beyond words.

If the evidence coming from the defense is from Ghomeshi's own email account, then the Crown wouldn't have had access to it. I can't fault the Crown for having witnesses with poor memories at best, or some axe to grind at worst. In either case, the Crown has little to prosecute the witnesses on.

Thanos Thanos:

Ghomeshi can't, or shouldn't, sue the complainants either. Just because they lied about the nature of their relationships with him it's still fact that he did the perverse S&M stuff with them. It's true what his particular kink is, as much as it's true now that the women weren't particularly repulsed or scared of his behaviour as their attempts to maintain contact with him after have shown.

Exactly. Kinky isn't illegal, but assault is. And without credible witnesses, it's 'he said, she said'.

But I'd never assume that they weren't repulsed by or scared of his aggression. People do some strange stuff under pressure and for love.

[andyt]

Seems likely they will sue Ghomeshi, and have a much lower standard to meet. Although how much money he'll have left after the criminal trial is a question.

[DrCaleb]

andyt andyt:

Seems likely they will sue Ghomeshi, and have a much lower standard to meet. Although how much money he'll have left after the criminal trial is a question.

And he's not going to get many new jobs in Canada now.

[Hmmmm]

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

andyt andyt:

..... how much money he'll have left after the criminal trial is a question.

And he's not going to get many new jobs in Canada now.

And the notion that he "got away with it" - i.e. without consequence - is far from the truth.

[andyt]

You get accused of a serious crime in this country, you never "get away with it" because you either roll the dice on a public defender or pay a fortune to a shark. You have to be rich indeed to "get away with it." And often, especially with sexual assault, many people will remain convinced you're really guilty.

[peck420]

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

If the evidence coming from the defense is from Ghomeshi's own email account, then the Crown wouldn't have had access to it. I can't fault the Crown for having witnesses with poor memories at best, or some axe to grind at worst. In either case, the Crown has little to prosecute the witnesses on.

Why wouldn't the Crown have had access to it?

Would not a standard investigation have searched his residence (kept letter), including his computer (emails)? Specifically since this is the location that at least one alleged assault took place.

If there was no actual investigation, why where charges levied?

This is really starting to sound like the Crown and TPS dropped the ball. I can't imagine that they started an investigation on Oct. 31, and did nothing until Ghomeshi turned himself in on Nov. 26th.

[ShepherdsDog]

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

Thanos Thanos:

Probably not, considering that the Crown had more than enough time to thoroughly examine the statements that were being made and chose on their own to move forward with the charges. This is a prosecutors botch altogether. Going back at the complainants after being made to look like idiots by Ghomeshi's defense team would be petty beyond words.

If the evidence coming from the defense is from Ghomeshi's own email account, then the Crown wouldn't have had access to it. I can't fault the Crown for having witnesses with poor memories at best, or some axe to grind at worst. In either case, the Crown has little to prosecute the witnesses on.

Thanos Thanos:

Ghomeshi can't, or shouldn't, sue the complainants either. Just because they lied about the nature of their relationships with him it's still fact that he did the perverse S&M stuff with them. It's true what his particular kink is, as much as it's true now that the women weren't particularly repulsed or scared of his behaviour as their attempts to maintain contact with him after have shown.

Exactly. Kinky isn't illegal, but assault is. And without credible witnesses, it's 'he said, she said'.

But I'd never assume that they weren't repulsed by or scared of his aggression. People do some strange stuff under pressure and for love.

love?? For some reason I have my doubts that this ever entered the equation.....in any of the cases.

[andyt]

peck420 peck420:

Would not a standard investigation have searched his residence (kept letter), including his computer (emails)? Specifically since this is the location that at least one alleged assault took place.

If there was no actual investigation, why where charges levied?

This is really starting to sound like the Crown and TPS dropped the ball. I can't imagine that they started an investigation on Oct. 31, and did nothing until Ghomeshi turned himself in on Nov. 26th.

If this was a child porn case, say, sure, they would search his computer. But for sexual assault? The complainants all told the police they had nothing more to do with him after the assaults, so I'm not sure they would go searching for e-mails. Admittedly I don't know much about police procedures.

[DrCaleb]

peck420 peck420:

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

If the evidence coming from the defense is from Ghomeshi's own email account, then the Crown wouldn't have had access to it. I can't fault the Crown for having witnesses with poor memories at best, or some axe to grind at worst. In either case, the Crown has little to prosecute the witnesses on.

Why wouldn't the Crown have had access to it?

Would not a standard investigation have searched his residence (kept letter), including his computer (emails)? Specifically since this is the location that at least one alleged assault took place.

If there was no actual investigation, why where charges levied?

This is really starting to sound like the Crown and TPS dropped the ball. I can't imagine that they started an investigation on Oct. 31, and did nothing until Ghomeshi turned himself in on Nov. 26th.

Having a personal email server may not be in his home. You can rent space in a 'server farm' cheaply.

And that even presupposes that the Crown got a warrant to search and seize computer equipment. A judge might be wary to grant such a warrant to find email evidence of an assault. And even so, an email trail might not be on his personal computer, it might be like most email service nowadays, and be web based and centralized. And he might have more than one account . . . I can think of many reasons the Crown might not have had access to his emails.

ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:

love?? For some reason I have my doubts that this ever entered the equation.....in any of the cases.

You just never know. I could never understand women who get beat so bad that they need ER treatment, then go back to the guy. Any women I've been with, had I raised a hand to them, I would have woke up in the middle of the night with them standing over me with the largest knife in the house . . . with them saying "no, it's OK, nothing wrong, go back to sleep!"

[Thanos]

Disclosure rules state though that the defense should have made those emails available to the police and prosecution during the investigation stages. If they had then the trial wouldn't have happened at all because the Crown would have obviously known they wouldn't have a leg to stand on. If the Crown proceeded in possession of that information then it makes it more like someone in the office wanted Ghomeshi's scalp on the wall as a trophy. Irregardless of whatever happens next at some stage the Crown needs to do an internal review to find what led to this apparent fiasco.

[andyt]

I can't find anything about disclosure duties by the defense.

It's regardless, not irregardless.

[Thanos]

One would assume that a defense would want to show all evidence that would exonerate the accused before it even got to trial. Just to avoid even more embarrassment, not to mention months of relentless stress, it would have been in Ghomeshi's best interest to produce those emails early to show everything was consensual and that the supposed victims actually wanted to maintain a relationship with him afterwards. It's not a card game where one side is waiting to go "ha ha! royal flush!" just to make the other guy look stupid.

[andyt]

Guess I've watched too much Perry Mason. None of this stuff exonerates Ghomeshi, he could have assaulted them and the complainants still act as they did. In fact I think that's what happened. They do instill reasonable doubt (plus a lot of doubt about their sanity), which is up to a judge to decide.

You raise a good point, but again, Ghomeshi did have this stuff, the prosecution was caught flat footed with it, so I assume it was not disclosed beforehand.

[Thanos]

I'm just assuming that "best interests of my client" mean that a defense lawyer will do anything they can to keep a case from even getting to trial to begin with. That's why I'm thinking that someone in the prosecution made the decision to proceed anyway with a "let's nail this little perv to the wall" mentality that's now blown up in their faces.