[Freakinoldguy]

2Cdo 2Cdo:

Freakinoldguy Freakinoldguy:

Hmmmm Hmmmm:

OMG, those Moooslims are coming to OUR swapmeets !!!

Thanks for answering my question regarding whether you're a troll or not.

Yep. Him, Andy and fifeboy. Anything negative posted about muslims is answered with "But Christians,,,,,"

The sad part is that I didn't mention or even think about Muslims when I made my post.

[BRAH]

The Beygency

The Day Beyoncé Turned Black

[PublicAnimalNo9]

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

Oh Spare me.

The people who defend the confederate flag, monuments to slave owners, genocidal colonizers and perpetrators of Indian massacres, names like the Washington Redskins, suddenly are mortally offended by racial insensitivity. Funny how that is when you're on the receiving end of it for one brief moment of your life.

Well, at least you admitted it was racist. That's a start. And the Confederate flag is not a racist symbol. It's only racist because bleeding heart morons have called it a racist symbol.
The Washington Redskins first coach was a Cree Indian ffs.
Then there's idiotic Rhodes students who want the statues of Cecil Rhodes removed from Rhodes college campuses. These SAME students are there because they received a Rhodes scholarship, so his money sure as fuck is good enough for them.
Oh and let's not forget about those Native massacres. Like the Natives were the only people that ever suffered from imperialism and/or conquest.
Ever heard of the Celts? Do you see many of them around anymore? How about the Picts? No? Gee, I wonder what happened to them. After all, they were White so Whitey sure wouldn't have done anything to them, right?

[ShepherdsDog]

PA9. You're actually trying to argue historical fact with a revisionist?

[Khar]

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

Oh Spare me.

The people who defend the confederate flag, monuments to slave owners, genocidal colonizers and perpetrators of Indian massacres, names like the Washington Redskins, suddenly are mortally offended by racial insensitivity. Funny how that is when you're on the receiving end of it for one brief moment of your life.

Well, at least you admitted it was racist. That's a start. And the Confederate flag is not a racist symbol. It's only racist because bleeding heart morons have called it a racist symbol.
The Washington Redskins first coach was a Cree Indian ffs.
Then there's idiotic Rhodes students who want the statues of Cecil Rhodes removed from Rhodes college campuses. These SAME students are there because they received a Rhodes scholarship, so his money sure as fuck is good enough for them.
Oh and let's not forget about those Native massacres. Like the Natives were the only people that ever suffered from imperialism and/or conquest.
Ever heard of the Celts? Do you see many of them around anymore? How about the Picts? No? Gee, I wonder what happened to them. After all, they were White so Whitey sure wouldn't have done anything to them, right?

He called it "insensitive," not racist. I didn't find it racist. I'm pretty white. Insensitive, yeah, but it carries an unapologetic message. In an era of Sanders and Trump, insensitive is pretty much the American cup of tea.

Ah, the wonderful era of female disenfranchisement, white man's burden, and eugenics, what a time. The thing is that when you look at your examples in depth, it becomes a lot harder to support them in modern contexts, in my view.

For example, the first protests of Rhodes statues were not by students who got the Rhodes scholarships, it was from Afrikaners in the 1950s who disliked the idea of a white supremacist who pushed through the Glen Gray Act, the Hut Tax and the Natives Land Act, disenfranchising and transferring land from black owners to white owners while simultaneously driving them into lives in hard labour. Most of the protests since have been in honour of those men and women. His role in the formation of De Beers and the questionable history that would follow from blood diamond mining in Africa is well known. That other people have followed, including some who would learn the history of Rhodes following the reception of the award, is not a surprise; it's why there's a concerted push for support of the Marshall scholarship instead, because much of what the Rhodes scholarship has to do with academic does not reflect the man it's named after at all. Yeah, it's an honour that's hard to pass up, it's almost akin to having a golden key, but it doesn't mean they can't call it out for being named after a douche canoe. The guy would be spitting mad that there are recipients these days who aren't white men of good breeding.

The identity of Coach William Henry Dietz has been contested since 1916 (including by his sister), before he ever was a coach for the Redskins where claims were made that he only identified as Native to avoid the draft. He eventually pleaded no contest to the charges that he faked his identity (and he only had to convince the jury he believed he was Native). Regardless of whether or not he actually was Native (since it's more an entertaining historical story than anything), the fact that our society no longer describes Natives in that term should be front and center, especially given the awakening our society had from what uncontrolled bigotry can have a few short years after Dietz ceased being the coach for the team. Even this mild far more mild form of commentary is still as shitty as having a team called the "Faggots" or the "Wetbacks" or the "Mossheads." A Native coach of 80 plus years ago is not a Native coach today. I'd prefer the site of a major rally for Gay rights in the seventies to not be called "Faggot Square" or the "Limp Wristed Way." I'd figure it'd be kind of obvious why.

No one's forgetting Native massacres. However, I find it REALLY hard to call those massacres on the same scale as "wiping out the seminal scourge" or a few centuries of slavery through the triangle trade or the wholesale oppression of an entire people a la Cecil Rhodes in South Africa (or the Cape Colony at the time), especially when your examples (Rhodes, Washington Redskins, the Confederate Flag) are things which are revered or celebrated today, and I don't know of any modern celebration of Iroquois domination. My own criticism of the "noble savage" motif is on file here, so I don't disagree that there is some romanticism there, but I don't think it cancels out the criticisms being discussed in this thread.

And for a thread all about Beyonce and black identity in the USA, we sure are talking about a lot of things that have happened outside of the USA, eh? At the end of the day, Beyonce is talking about living it as an ongoing experience, day to day. If other people are feeling they are too, fine, fix that too. It doesn't take away from her message, nor do I feel it correct to equivocate her message being equal to some of the periodic experiences of racism some have described here.

With regards to the Confederate Flag, aside from my post here, I'm just going to remark that any of the positives of that flag are safely positive aspects I associate with the American flag, and it's use otherwise should be people's chief concern, since it's often being flown for a crappy reason (see: other thread). For many it continues to be a flag of segregationists fighting for a racial cause against the USA, and there's no reason for that flag to be flown in front of the government buildings of America's current governments, in my own opinion. If you want to fly it in the name of percieved positives it's remembered for, fine, but not by institutions representing all the people. Too often it is flown with the pretense that the only state that flew it didn't have some serious issues in it's formation, it's governance, and it's legacy to go along with those positives.

My thoughts and opinions anyway as written on the phone as written really bloody early in the morning, anyway.

[PublicAnimalNo9]

ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:

PA9. You're actually trying to argue historical fact with a revisionist?

Yeah well, I have nothing better to do today But it turns out one of my facts is false. The first coach of the Redskins wasn't Cree.
He was Sioux.

[stratos]

Hmmmm Hmmmm:

OMG, those Moooslims are coming to OUR swapmeets !!!

Well we see where your mind goes immediately when someone states something is being taken over. As far as I know he could have been referring to First Nation people or Mexicans ( I recalled a couple years ago a discussion about Central and S. Americans coming to Canada) or even Asians.

Thanks for making it clear that it is Muslims and that you are offended by them so instantly want to go there.

[Hmmmm]

stratos stratos:

Thanks for making it clear that it is Muslims and that you are offended by them so instantly want to go there.

Nice try, troll, but your bait's rancid.

[BRAH]

Hmmmm Hmmmm:

stratos stratos:

Thanks for making it clear that it is Muslims and that you are offended by them so instantly want to go there.

Nice try, troll, but your bait's rancid.

Don't worry Da Jooooooooossss will get you.

[BeaverFever]

$1:

So, I may not know what I'm talking about when it comes to you and your families experiences or any other coloured peoples for that matter but, I do know what I'm talking about when I say that I experienced racism based on my skin colour which would seem to indicate that anyone can be a victim of racism and it isn't the exclusive domain of one or a few groups of races.

It's obvious from this and your earlier post that you don't understand the difference between isolated individual acts of racism, which can happen to anyone and SYSTEMIC racism. Neither is acceptable but they are not the same. Yes, some black guy insulted you, which is not nice, but its not like you and other whites live under a black government where an almost all-black government and all-black police force discriminate against you on a daily basis, and expect you to pledge allegiance to a flag that was the symbol of that persecution. You mention an individual's right to fly the confederate flag, which is not the issue. The issue is the states' decisions to use that flag as their official symbol and fly it over the heads of the people, whose enslavement and oppression the flag was used to represent.

[BeaverFever]

$1:

Well, at least you admitted it was racist.

Um no I didn't.

$1:

And the Confederate flag is not a racist symbol.

Can you please explain to me on what basis something is or isn't racist? Because I'm trying to understand what makes a halftime dance routine racist, but not the confederate flag or almost anything else it seems?

$1:

The Washington Redskins first coach was a Cree Indian ffs.

So? If one Indian decides he is ok with it (and gets paid for it), then all the other Indians have to be? Well then, I'm one white person who was not offended by Beyonce's act, therefore I am waiving the right of all white people to be offended. Wow that was easy!

BTW, you should know that the Rhodes scholarship explicitly excluded Blacks until 1991. And explicitly excluded women until 1977. And he was by all modern standards and racist and sexist villain of history. He wasn't a good guy that happened to have racist views, White Supremacy was his passion in life and it was his motivation for the scholarship.

So I could give a shit about him, his family or his legacy. If his wealth is now used to ensure that the world will never have another evil bigot like Cecil Rhodes well that's poetic justice..

$1:

Ever heard of the Celts? Do you see many of them around anymore? How about the Picts? No?

Are you fucking kidding me? Your argument is because of what the Celts and Picts experienced in medieval times (most were forcibly assimilated actually) therefore the Indian massacres are acceptable? By the way, there are plenty of people celebrating their Celtic origins. Most Western Europeans are still descendants of the original Celtic inhabitants and in the UK and Ireleand, that heritage is celebrated. Also know that the Romans and the Germanic tribes who did rule over and often persecute the Celts are not exactly whitewashed and portrayed heroes. History sees them as they were, and doesn't try to lionized them.

[stratos]

Hmmmm Hmmmm:

stratos stratos:

Thanks for making it clear that it is Muslims and that you are offended by them so instantly want to go there.

Nice try, troll, but your bait's rancid.

OMG look who's calling ME a troll.

unfortunately you like others here when burned by their own words recoil in auto defense mode of "oh you're just a troll". Welcome to a world where your words and actions matter in how people define you. We call it reality.

[PublicAnimalNo9]

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

$1:

Well, at least you admitted it was racist.

Um no I didn't.

$1:

And the Confederate flag is not a racist symbol.

Can you please explain to me on what basis something is or isn't racist? Because I'm trying to understand what makes a halftime dance routine racist, but not the confederate flag or almost anything else it seems?

A flag is just that, a flag. Any inherent symbolism attributed to such an inanimate object is put there by the person viewing it. The Confederate flag is only a racist symbol because SJW leftards have decided that they speak for everyone and therefore the flag is a racist symbol.

$1:

The Washington Redskins first coach was a Cree Indian ffs.

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

So? If one Indian decides he is ok with it (and gets paid for it), then all the other Indians have to be? Well then, I'm one white person who was not offended by Beyonce's act, therefore I am waiving the right of all white people to be offended. Wow that was easy!

Of course it was easy for you when you don't understand the difference between taking a job and promoting violence and racial discord.

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

BTW, you should know that the Rhodes scholarship explicitly excluded Blacks until 1991. And explicitly excluded women until 1977. And he was by all modern standards and racist and sexist villain of history. He wasn't a good guy that happened to have racist views, White Supremacy was his passion in life and it was his motivation for the scholarship.

And yet Black students and women now receive Rhodes scholarships. It's called "biting the hand that feeds".

$1:

Ever heard of the Celts? Do you see many of them around anymore? How about the Picts? No?

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

Are you fucking kidding me? Your argument is because of what the Celts and Picts experienced in medieval times (most were forcibly assimilated actually) therefore the Indian massacres are acceptable?

Are you fucking stupid? Read up on the history of humanity and our migrations. It's a long, sad history of war, murder, colonization, massacres, genocide etc. So what makes the Natives so fucking special that they deserve extra-special treatment for it?
Never said it was acceptable either, that's just you hucking strawmen around. But maybe you can explain what made it less acceptable than any other conquest in history.

[BartSimpson]

$1:

Coach William Henry Dietz

Funny thing is one of his grandkids is my accountant. He used to have Redskins posters in his office but now has had to take them down because this is Sacramento and we can't offend the snowflakes with things like family history.

[Khar]

$1:

A flag is just that, a flag. Any inherent symbolism attributed to such an inanimate object is put there by the person viewing it. The Confederate flag is only a racist symbol because SJW leftards have decided that they speak for everyone and therefore the flag is a racist symbol.

Should we say the same about niqabs (your post)? After all, like your analysis of this flag (which is, of course, just a symbol, albeit of a far worse group), if a flag has grown to represent a rather crappy aspect of humanity, or has carried a problematic message, it's the right of people to not support it or to get rid of it. That flag only has the Shahada and the seal of the Prophet upon it, which is a common phrase among the faithful, akin to "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. You shall have no other gods before me" overlaid on a cross. It's the people and history behind it that cause people to want to burn it.

The Confederate flag is used by white supremacists and similar groups in the modern era, and is the flag of a state that violently separated with the purpose of continuing slavery and encouraging the racial divide. You don't want to think of the racial aspect? Fine. However, a lot of Americans remember that rather poignant aspect of the flag and are all to happy to point out it's racist aspects so as to stop it being flown in front of government buildings.

$1:

Of course it was easy for you when you don't understand the difference between taking a job and promoting violence and racial discord.

As opposed to now, where we have no racial discord. I'll be sure to advise BLM that they aren't a symptom of that and can stop it, and that Dylann Roof, Ferguson and a dozen other major debates currently happening that they only just began to exist.

Beyonce is, at worst, an extension of pre-existing anger, distaste and lack of patience with the status quo that is a chorus within that community.

Besides, Beavers' original point was that the Redskins has racial connotations. Your response that they had a Native coach way back when that was acceptable is kind of a non sequitur. I think Beaver gets that difference rather easily.

$1:

And yet Black students and women now receive Rhodes scholarships. It's called "biting the hand that feeds".

Because we never change the name of awards, places or events when it turns out they had a name that references a questionable past. That's why there's two cities in Ontario called Berlin-Waterloo and one in Saskatchewan called Prussia. Oh, wait.

It's a name. The guy was shitty. His only good history was this award, and even that is tainted by shit. It also doesn't excuse the "genocidal colonizers" point in Beaver's post that you have somehow managed to reduce to this one award from one guy out of his long life of shitty behaviour. Again, bit of a non sequitur.

$1:

Are you fucking stupid? Read up on the history of humanity and our migrations. It's a long, sad history of war, murder, colonization, massacres, genocide etc. So what makes the Natives so fucking special that they deserve extra-special treatment for it?
Never said it was acceptable either, that's just you hucking strawmen around. But maybe you can explain what made it less acceptable than any other conquest in history.

... because as Canadians, the mass majority of the war, murder, colonization, massacres and genocide that relates in any way to us is directly attributed to what happened to the Natives? I mean, sure, make your argument otherwise, but Canada didn't exactly have hordes of slaves from Africa, and doesn't have the long history of European feuds and fights going back millenia.

Also, after "winning" that conquest, our national precursors and forefathers decided it would be a great idea to continue the use of shit like residential schools, biological weapons like smallpox, and other methods of control and slaughter. It's also comparatively recent. I don't think we should let the Japanese forget the shit they pulled when they ruled Korea, for example. The Canadian situation is by no means unique; even in Europe there are groups of certain descent who want to "rejoin" their ancestral nation, and the borders drawn in the last century following the fall of Empires mostly reflect that there. In the rest of the world, especially the Americas, Africa, and South-East Asia, the status of Native peoples and how they were treated is part of public discussion.

Your demands to know why it's "less acceptable" than others implies you want more acceptability about what happened to the Natives. Your answer is as follows; we're in Canada, and we're talking about what happened here. Some of which can still be remembered right now. The people who were involved in these (as you yourself state) unacceptable acts were not from some medieval era, but post-renaissance forebears of our country, and eventually the citizens of our country.