[FieryVulpine]

Gunnair Gunnair:

Oh come on. Did you support the Mohawks in Caledonia too?

I was being flippant.

[Gunnair]

FieryVulpine FieryVulpine:

Gunnair Gunnair:

Oh come on. Did you support the Mohawks in Caledonia too?

I was being flippant.

Thank God. Use the 'flippant' emoticon to save confusion.

[ShepherdsDog]

commanderkai commanderkai:

ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:

No they're interested in peace, but they want to discuss it with people who are serious about it. A large segment of Israeli society would like to see the settlers repatriated, or just set free to fend for themselves. The Dove movement has taken a serious beating over the past 20 years. Many are resigned to the fact that they will lose Judea and Samaria to the Jordanians, however, they aren't the ones in power right now. Likud and their ulta religious allies are calling the shots...literally

Depends on the settlers. The ones deep within the West Bank, Israel will probably pull a Gaza pullout on them when the time comes. The "settlers" within East Jerusalem or hugging the "1967" line (something that always pissed me off. I really don't see why Israel should pull back to the pre-67 borders. They won't. Any negotiation with that in mind will fail) will be annexed into Israel proper, and no, the international community/the U.N. won't change that.

Seriously, once Israel completes its border wall in the West Bank, it won't be moving, ever. The Palestinians fucked their chances after the Second Intifada, and even moreso after the 2005 Gaza pullout. I can't blame the Israelis for being hugely cynical anymore.

Are we going to correct all territorial acquisitions made through conflict? Are we going to give the Germans 1/3 of Poland...not German conquests but actual German states, principalities and territory prior to conflict, and then give the Poles all the land the Russians took? Are the Greeks going to be given Thrace back? Are all the territories the US took from Mexico going to be given back? Will Moldova be returned to Romania? Will Tibet be allowed to become independent? will northern Cyprus be reunited with the south? Will the American government return 25% of its land mass to the Mexicans? No, not a chance.

Yet, the Israelis are expected to return land they took, after they were invaded by hostile Arabs trying to destroy them. Ask yourselves, why did Israel expand beyond its 1967 borders...who precipitated their seizure of that land. Had they been left alone by the Arabs those borders would be the current ones today. They didn't launch wars of expansion. They were invaded and the knuckle walking invaders were driven back. They won those lands by right of conquest while the rest of the world stood by and watched.... Poor Israel, it was interesting while it lasted. Again why should Israel be expected to do when other players haven't been, including the US. Texas is somewhat comparable to what is happening in the West Bank, except for the fact that the Texans had no cultural or historical connection to the land they settled and wrested from the Mexicans.

Now all that being said, I expect to see the world recognize a Lesser Jordan. However, there will be a sizable and affluent Jewish minority, living in walled and gated communities which will be not so covertly protected and armed by Israel against the possibility of Arab atrocities against them.

[Curtman]

ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:

Curtman Curtman:

ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:

So you support the Reconquista/Aztlán movement too? California all the way to Texas should be returned to Mexico?

Once the Americans stop building settlements in Mexico, there can be peace. Imagine the nerve of those Mexicans for wanting someone to recognize their country as their own.

Idiot.

Awwww, I'm so hurt. It's not too late for you to go back to high school and learn some real history, and maybe even get your diploma.

Yeah. Because historical events are a great excuse to commit atrocities today. The Nazi's thought it was perfectly fine to gas people they didn't like. Maybe the Israeli's should try that.

Idiot.

[ShepherdsDog]

You know Curt I hate to repeat your parents and teachers but.....naw, fuck it they likely didn't think you were worth the effort either.

[commanderkai]

Curtman Curtman:

Yeah. Because historical events are a great excuse to commit atrocities today. The Nazi's thought it was perfectly fine to gas people they didn't like. Maybe the Israeli's should try that.

Idiot.

Godwin alert, Godwin alert!

Seriously, absolutely no country, including half of those who supported the observer status for Palestine (Turkey, Russia, China) certainly haven't done the exact same thing that Israel is doing right now. I mean, who cares about Cyprus? I don't think anybody has ever talked about a genocide against the Palestinians, nor is what Israel doing in any way considered genocide.

[Curtman]

commanderkai commanderkai:

absolutely no country, including half of those who supported the observer status for Palestine (Turkey, Russia, China) certainly haven't done the exact same thing that Israel is doing right now.

You and GOMC over there make a good team.

Your argument is they should support Israeli settlement expansion, the checkpoints, air raids in residential areas, etc, like Canada does or else they are hypocrites? That's basically it in a nutshell?

[desertdude]

Well truth of the matter is it is done now, the anti palestinians might try to scoff at it or brush it off as nothing great ( Sour grapes come to mind ), but is a ground breaking move and a huge victory for diplomacy and solid proof that the end to this conflict is not a military one, no matter how much the neocons wish it to be.

A sign showing the end of the unquestioned global support Israel had in the past, which even 5 years ago this would have been unimaginable. And the major force behind this have been the Israelis them self, not only with the recent military campaigns but gestures like when they were offered 3 billion worth of F 35s as bribes by the US to freeze the settlements for just 90 days so both parties could talk and they basically said fuck you. Which left a bad taste in many peoples mouth and told the world that they are not serious about a peace at all and just buying time while they see their quest for Greater Israel.

IF Israel would have played their cards right, they would have come out on top looking like heroes in this latest debacle, by endorsing the UN vote. They didn't really have much to loose with assurances from the PA that if they support the vote they will not go to the ICC and if they broke this agreement their would be economic reprecussions. This would also alienate Hamas to a very large scale in everyone's eyes, plus show the world that yes Israel is for a peaceful end to this conflict i.e : massive brownie points in the global community

But they choose to play the bully again and isolate themselves further, counting on their erred confidence of unwavering world support for this to be struck down badly at the UN and now acting like a small child throwing a temper tantrum by throwing out all the toys out of the pram by the announcements of stealing more land and even approvals of building into sector E1 which basically ends all hope of a two state solution and on top now they are imposing "fines" on the PA for their UN outing, how petty ! Not to mention the rhetoric from Israel and the nations that voted no with " The UN vote will hurt peace " !?!? Seriously ?

I sincerely do believe what shep said the big chunk of the Israeli common man wants peace and an end, just the same on the other side.

The ball now is the PA's court and they must tread carefully not to loose what they have achieved and think what ever the next step is going to be very carefully through. But also now they have a very important card in their deck, joining the ICC. Since 1967, Israel has attempted to solidify its military occupation of the territories while evading international culpability, something that could now change if the PA pursue the road up to The Hague.

[martin14]

desertdude desertdude:

But also now they have a very important card in their deck, joining the ICC. Since 1967,

just not seeing it.


Israel isn't a member of the ICC.

Neither is the US.

Neither is Pakistan for that matter.


Don't see the ICC doing anything against the US or Pakistan.. so,..



Besides, there are so many Palestinians that should be in front of the ICC,

in the defendant's box, rather than them whining and bitching to it.


Hamas, the PA and the PLO are in their heart terrorist groups.

[Curtman]

martin14 martin14:

Hamas, the PA and the PLO are in their heart terrorist groups.

While we're on the topic of history lessons....

$1:

The Irgun (Hebrew: אִרְגּוּן‎) (full title: Ha-Irgun Ha-Tzvai Ha-Leumi be-Eretz Yisrael) (from Hebrew: הָאִרְגּוּן הַצְּבָאִי הַלְּאֻמִּי בְאֶרֶץ יִשְׂרָאֵל‎, "The National Military Organization in the Land of Israel"), was a Zionist paramilitary group that operated in Mandate Palestine between 1931 and 1948. It was an offshoot of the earlier and larger Jewish paramilitary organization Haganah (Hebrew: "Defense", הגנה). When the group broke from the Haganah it became known as the Haganah Bet (Hebrew: literally "Defense 'B' " or "Second Defense", הגנה ב), or alternatively as haHaganah haLeumit (ההגנה הלאומית) or Ha'ma'amad (המעמד‎).[1] Irgun members were absorbed into the Israel Defence Forces at the start of the 1948 Arab–Israeli war. The Irgun is also referred to as Etzel (אצ"ל), an acronym of the Hebrew initials, or by the abbreviation IZL.
The Irgun policy was based on what was then called Revisionist Zionism founded by Ze'ev Jabotinsky. According to Howard Sachar, "The policy of the new organization was based squarely on Jabotinsky's teachings: every Jew had the right to enter Palestine; only active retaliation would deter the Arabs; only Jewish armed force would ensure the Jewish state".[2]
Two of the operations for which the Irgun is best known are the bombing of the King David Hotel in Jerusalem on 22 July 1946 and the Deir Yassin massacre, carried out together with Lehi on 9 April 1948.
The Irgun has been viewed as a terrorist organization or organization which carried out terrorist acts.[3][4] In particular the Irgun was branded a terrorist organisation by Britain.[5]
The Irgun was a political predecessor to Israel's right-wing Herut (or "Freedom") party, which led to today's Likud party.[6] Likud has led or been part of most Israeli governments since 1977.

It seems the Palestinians are following the exact same path to statehood that the Israeli's did.

[martin14]

Curtman Curtman:

martin14 martin14:

Hamas, the PA and the PLO are in their heart terrorist groups.

While we're on the topic of history lessons....

You are the LAST person to say anything about history,
especially because you don't know any it.

$1:

The Irgun (Hebrew: אִרְגּוּן‎) (

Good, being them in front of the ICC..

[EyeBrock]

This has become (predictably) a thread of taking ideological and partisan sides.

Most right- of-centre people are behind Israel, the lone democracy in the whole of the Middle East.

Most left-of-centre people support the misogynistic, anti-gay, anti-democratic, theocratic dictatorships that want to wipe out all the Jews.

I’ve never understood why Lefties support these guys that spout about everything the Left are against daily.

[desertdude]

They may "Terrorists in their hearts" according to you because apparently all of a sudden you have become clairvoyant, but regardless as the UK learned eventually with the case of the IRA they cannot choose who and who not to talk to. But all of this is just what about-ery and deflection from the topic at hand.

[EyeBrock]

DD, you have shown us what you are many times in the past. You support the likes of those who drag bodies behind motorbikes. It's no surprise that an apologist for the Jihad such as yourself would take that particular side. I'm sure you had a little jig when the Twin Towers came down.

[Curtman]

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

This has become (predictably) a thread of taking ideological and partisan sides.

Most right- of-centre people are behind Israel, the lone democracy in the whole of the Middle East.

Most left-of-centre people support the misogynistic, anti-gay, anti-democratic, theocratic dictatorships that want to wipe out all the Jews.

I’ve never understood why Lefties support these guys that spout about everything the Left are against daily.

Those of us in the centre don't understand why you extremists think you need to choose a side rather than support equality for both.