[PublicAnimalNo9]

eureka eureka:

The reality is that Alberta's oil is a net loss to the country and, in the future, as the oil is phased out, the gentle decline that has afflicted Canada since oil (and productivity, Lemmy) will become a precipice.

You have either contradicted yourself here or have admitted shutting down the oilsands would put Canada in an even worse position.

As for the "aside" I edited out

$1:

- as it will be within a couple of decades no matter hos much there is -

Are you referring to Alberta oil or oil in general? Cuz the way countries that don't even border the Arctic are trying to stake claims of ownership there, I'd say those nasty fossil fuels will still be in use for quite some time.

[bootlegga]

andyt andyt:

Ever since then, oil-exporting regions including Alaska, Venezuela, Iran and Louisiana have experienced the disease, which often makes petro states highly vulnerable economic monocultures.

"Persistent Dutch Disease provokes a rapid, even distorted, growth of services, transportation and other non-tradeables while simultaneously discouraging industrialization and agriculture -- a dynamic that policymakers seem incapable of counteracting," wrote Stanford political scientist Terry Lynn Karl in 1997.

Her classic book on oil booms and petro states, The Paradox of Plenty, has now become required reading for Canadian politicians.

http://thetyee.ca/Opinion/2012/02/29/Ca ... h-Disease/

A few points;

Some economists have argued that the decline of manufacturing in the Netherlands was actually caused by unsustainable spending on social services (Condon, 1984). I'm not an economist and do not know if that argument has been proven/disproven yet - perhaps Lemmy wold know. If Condon is correct and it is a factor, I think both Ontario and Quebec (especially) are guilty of that.

Another point is that while I agree we might suffer somewhat from Dutch disease, but as this paper argues, the depreciation of US currency was also a major factor (accounting for close to 40%).

http://www.economie.uqam.ca/pages/docs/Beine_Michel.pdf

However as Peck noted, why has Alberta been able to grow their own manufacturing exports (13% increase since 2000) at the same time Ontario's has shrunk? It's a question I would love to know the answer to.

Finally, I'm also sure that the current propensity for multi-nationals to outsource their manufacturing to Asia has had a significant effect on manufacturing in Ontario too.

Seems to me it is more than just Dutch Disease affecting manufacturing in Canada.

[OnTheIce]

saturn_656 saturn_656:

eureka eureka:

One good indicator here is the ridiculing of McGuinty be a few Westerners and a few Right Wingers. The same who are fawning over Redford.

McGuinty deserves to be ridiculed. Not just by the right, but by everybody. Anyone backing this joker doesn't live in Ontario, lives under a rock, or is a member of one of the public sector unions McGuinty likes to throw money at like it's going out of style.

The man has presided over one of the worst economic declines this province has ever seen, and his response is to shrug his shoulders and blame it on Alberta? Really? How about some real solutions from our fearless leader, preferably ones that don't involve robbing the middle class taxpayer OR decimating the value of CDN currency.

Did you really expect anything different from McGuinty?

When times get tough, he either raises taxes, blames Mike Harris or blames another Province.

Ontario has nobody to blame but themselves for allowing this guy to run the Province again .

[eureka]

dino_bobba_renno dino_bobba_renno:

eureka eureka:

One good indicator here is the ridiculing of McGuinty be a few Westerners and a few Right Wingers. The same who are fawning over Redford.

There is no talking sense, economics, or politics to them.

The reality is that Alberta's oil is a net loss to the country and, in the future, as the oil is phased out - as it will be within a couple of decades no matter hos much there is - the gentle decline that has afflicted Canada since oil (and productivity, Lemmy) will become a precipice.

We will have no viable manufacturing sectot left. Not one that can compete on a world market.

You still haven't explained why other countries have seen a equal if not greater loss in their manufacturing sectors but yet they have no oil sands or Alberta boogeyman to blame. Or maybe Alberta is to blame for the manufacturing losses in other countries as well

eureka eureka:

There is no talking sense, economics, or politics to them.

What is to explain when your statement is not true. For any that it might be, the reasons would be endemic to them.
Pot, meet kettle

[Alta_redneck]

This is what I've been hearing the last couple of days from the oil patch, they expect to spend
55 to 60 $$ Billion $$ in Ontario by 2030.

When a store pisses me off I shop someplace else.

[eureka]

There really does not seem to be a lot of point to this when several cannot see more than schoolboy railing at McGuinty who, incidentally, has been a damned good Premier steering Ontario through the mess left by Harris and then the world wide economic meltdown: as well as making Ontario one of the world leaders in the development of renewable energy facilities.

I have issues with McGuinty but they have nothing to do with his economic stewardship.

Those who rail against his tax "increases" and spending on social programmes should open their eyes and get the blazing Blue out of them. McGuinty has restored some of the damage done by Harris (and Flaherty) but not enough: since Harris shredded the tax base the province has not been able to afford proper repair. It social programmes, like the rest of Canada, are low in the scale of the OECD countries.

[eureka]

I answered Peck, bootlegga. Alberta's manufacturing is strongly tied to its oil and gas industry. The parts that are not so tied are not faring well.

Condon, btw, is a banker and a disciple of the Chicago School of economic thought. He would think that the social programmes were too generous.

He is some distance to the Right of Drummond.

[eureka]

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

eureka eureka:

The reality is that Alberta's oil is a net loss to the country and, in the future, as the oil is phased out, the gentle decline that has afflicted Canada since oil (and productivity, Lemmy) will become a precipice.

You have either contradicted yourself here or have admitted shutting down the oilsands would put Canada in an even worse position.

As for the "aside" I edited out

$1:

- as it will be within a couple of decades no matter hos much there is -

Are you referring to Alberta oil or oil in general? Cuz the way countries that don't even border the Arctic are trying to stake claims of ownership there, I'd say those nasty fossil fuels will still be in use for quite some time.

I think you are misreading me, PA. There is no contradiction and no admission of a worse case for Canada.

Oil will be phased out within a couple of decades: phased out from world use. It will be too expensive if nothing else for the uses it now has. Alberta is not preparing for that day and it is dragging Canada down with it.

For those who are threatening Ontario! Have you thought about what would happen if Ontario began a protectionist strategy?

[FurTrader4]

Alta_redneck Alta_redneck:

This is what I've been hearing the last couple of days from the oil patch, they expect to spend
55 to 60 $$ Billion $$ in Ontario by 2030.

When a store pisses me off I shop someplace else.

Typical Dalton McGuinty obsessed with green energy, no clue what work is or how jobs are created I'd shop elsewhere too!

[Yogi]

eureka eureka:

There really does not seem to be a lot of point to this when several cannot see more than schoolboy railing at McGuinty who, incidentally, has been a damned good Premier steering Ontario through the mess left by Harris and then the world wide economic meltdown: as well as making Ontario one of the world leaders in the development of renewable energy facilities.

I have issues with McGuinty but they have nothing to do with his economic stewardship.

Those who rail against his tax "increases" and spending on social programmes should open their eyes and get the blazing Blue out of them. McGuinty has restored some of the damage done by Harris (and Flaherty) but not enough: since Harris shredded the tax base the province has not been able to afford proper repair. It social programmes, like the rest of Canada, are low in the scale of the OECD countries.

Pull your head out of your ass, and do some research!

[peck420]

eureka eureka:

Alberta's manufacturing is strongly tied to its oil and gas industry. The parts that are not so tied are not faring well.

I am going to run this by my clients (almost none of which are involved in oil) and see what they think.

Oil is the catalyst, but it's not the only fuel firing up this economy.

Alberta is on a path to a well diversified economy (too slowly for my liking, but that is a different topic).

[BeaverFever]

Alberta’s manufacturing sector is not nearly as diversified as Ontario's and is basically a niche focused on serving the energy sector and basic staples. It's only the 5th largest sector in a province of 4 million (lagging behind Energy, Environment, Forestry and Agriculture).

The biggest manufacturing category in Alberta is petroleum and coal products ($1.6 billion), which includes all the stuff that refineries in the province pump out. Other important categories are chemicals ($1.1 billion), machinery ($740 million) and fabricated metal ($500 million). The two main categories that are not related to the energy sector are food ($954 million) and wood and paper manufacturing ($329 million).

[FieryVulpine]

To be fair, Peck said that "Alberta is on a path to a well diversified economy," which implies that aren't quite there yet and that there is much room for improvement.

[BeaverFever]

Well I was rally answering the question about why Alberta's manufacturing industry has performed better than Ontario's. The reason is that it's not a true stand-alone and broad manufacturing sector, but rather it's an offshoot of the province's Energy sector.

[OnTheIce]

eureka eureka:

There really does not seem to be a lot of point to this when several cannot see more than schoolboy railing at McGuinty who, incidentally, has been a damned good Premier steering Ontario through the mess left by Harris and then the world wide economic meltdown: as well as making Ontario one of the world leaders in the development of renewable energy facilities.

I have issues with McGuinty but they have nothing to do with his economic stewardship.

Those who rail against his tax "increases" and spending on social programmes should open their eyes and get the blazing Blue out of them. McGuinty has restored some of the damage done by Harris (and Flaherty) but not enough: since Harris shredded the tax base the province has not been able to afford proper repair. It social programmes, like the rest of Canada, are low in the scale of the OECD countries.

I'm sorry, but you must be clinically retarded.

You can't pay for social programs when you have no money.

Our 3rd largest expense in Ontario is interest on our debt.(And interest is at an all-time low) The more interest we pay, the less we can pump into programs to help people.

We're compounding the problem.

-25 billion in added debt this year.

-Government spending is up 70%

-Provincial debt has DOUBLED under his fine "stewardship".

Ontario is the new Greece and people in Ontario don't care about debt until programs start being slashed and your taxes raised.

It's time to pull your head out of your ass now, wake up to the financial reality that this Province is broke...and you can thank McGuinty for his fine stewardship for getting us here.