[Proculation]

Akhenaten Akhenaten:

No it was also last year...2008. Look it up. Since you don't want to put your 1 in 3 to the test or even compare it with last year amoung numerious nations including Canada then i'll conclude you don't really believe it yourself.

Because it was not last year but last spring !

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandemic_H1N1/09_virus

$1:

Humans have been affected since early 2009.

$1:

(one minute i need to get the vaccine or i have a 1 in 3 chancve of getting the flu....next minute i won't have that chance because everyone is getting vaccinated. Please pick a lane and stick with it ok? Eitehr I have a 1 in 3 chance of getting it because I didnt get vaccinated or I don't. Which is it?)

$1:

I just don't understand the logic here. When you can prevent, you do.

Because as mentioned before you can prevent it simply by ensuring your immune system is healthy. Those odds are better imo.

Studies showed that people have almost no immunity against that strain. So even "ensuring your immune system is healthy" won't do anything.

$1:

The virus is a novel strain of influenza. Existing vaccines against seasonal flu provide no protection. A study at the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) published in May 2009 found that children had no preexisting immunity to the new strain but that adults, particularly those over 60, had some degree of immunity. Children showed no cross-reactive antibody reaction to the new strain, adults aged 18 to 64 had 6-9%, and older adults 33%.

[Brenda]

$1:

When you can prevent, you do.

I take it you take tylenol each day to prevent you from getting a headache?
I take it you don't get drunk to prevent a hangover?
Want me to go on?

[Proculation]

Brenda Brenda:

$1:

When you can prevent, you do.

I take it you take tylenol each day to prevent you from getting a headache?
I take it you don't get drunk to prevent a hangover?
Want me to go on?

There's no logic there ! A headache is not the flu and when you get drunk you know you will have a hangover. Why would you risk to have that flu when it can be easily prevented with a little and inoffensive shot ? I don't get it...

[Brenda]

Proculation Proculation:

Brenda Brenda:

$1:

When you can prevent, you do.

I take it you take tylenol each day to prevent you from getting a headache?
I take it you don't get drunk to prevent a hangover?
Want me to go on?

There's no logic there ! A headache is not the flu and when you get drunk you know you will have a hangover. Why would you risk to have that flu when it can be easily prevented with a little and inoffensive shot ? I don't get it...

Why would you get drunk when you know you get sick the next day?

Because, in answer to your question, I refuse to put shit in my while my immune system should be able to fight it. It's not a deadly disease, you dont get anything from it (like you could from HPV, Rhubella, Polio, Malaria). Not everyone who gets the flu, dies. It is totally normal for a human being to have an immune system. I am not going to fuck with that. It is also totally normal for a human being to get sick once in a while. Why would you NOT let nature take its course?

And, btw, you are NOT guaranteed to not get the flu or a serious cold with flu-like symptoms. You wont get the one you are vaccinated against.
Just like with the HPV-shot for girls, it doesnt mean the girls WON'T get cervix cancer.

[Brenda]

Then again.. Where IS that swine flu vaccine? When can you get it? Lots of people already have some kind of flu.

[DrCaleb]

Brenda Brenda:

Then again.. Where IS that swine flu vaccine? When can you get it? Lots of people already have some kind of flu.

The local clinic for vaccination for me is in the local mall, right now. 5 minute drive. Since it isn't flu season, people with the flu right now probably have the H1N1 swine flu.

This is a completely new strain, and even though I rarely get sick with the seasonal flu, my body has no idea about this flu. Since I have a compromised immune system, getting the shot for me is a wise decision.

[segno]

Akhenaten Akhenaten:

...and yet you have no answer for why the sky didn't fall last year as predicted, when there was no vaccine.

Are you referring to the recent years when there were shortages of seasonal flu vaccine?

Well, there are a couple of reasons why the "sky didn't fall"...

- It is incorrect to say that there was "no" vaccine. The fact is, the vaccine did exist, just that production problems meant that not as many got the vaccine. But, many many people did.

- we may have got 'lucky'... the strains that were circulating probably were similar enough to the strains circulating the previous year that people may have had a partial immunity from previous year's vaccinations

- The flu itself may not have been a very severe strain, or easy to transmit

Its not always easy to compare the effects on populations in different years... strains of the flu vary. And then there's the issue of pure 'dumb luck'.... one person coughs on the subway filled with seniors and we have all sorts of deaths; same guy stays home, we have fewer deaths.

However, when flu vaccines are examined using the best experimental controls possible, we find that the vaccines are safe and effective.

[segno]

Akhenaten Akhenaten:

"The shot is effective at 95% against the H1N1 strain."

Okay I'm going to just go ahead and take your word for that even though I've yet to see any evidence showing that, (and it surprises me you would say that since there haven't been any North american trails I've read about yet that would determine that)

Any particular reason you'd insist on North American Trials?

Here's one in Australia:
http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/NEJMoa0907413
By day 21 after vaccination, antibody titers of 1:40 or more were observed in 116 of 120 subjects (96.7%) who received the 15-µg dose and in 112 of 120 subjects (93.3%) who received the 30-µg dose. No deaths, serious adverse events, or adverse events of special interest were reported

$1:

...even so....my chance of getting the flu is what? 1 in 10000? And then if I get it my chance of dying is what? Another 1 in 100000?

Yet side effects are popping up everywhere.

First of all, side effects are not 'popping up everywhere'. I've already pointed to one study done with H1N1 that showed nothing significant.

In the past, the only serious side effect has been Guillme-Barre syndrom, a neurological disease that might be caused when the immune system reacts to the vaccination. (This problem may be serious, but it is very rarely fatal.)

In the 1970s, a swine flu panic lead to widespread vaccinations. However, there was an unexplained increase in deaths that year... 25 people died (out of a total of 40 million vaccinations. In that year, your chance of dying from the vaccine was 0.000063%. (And that was the worst year EVER for the GBS problem.)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15562126

So, what about the flu? We won't know what the final results of the influenza season until its all over. However, we can make a few educated guesses.

Lets look at the results in Australia. Their flu season occurs earlier in the year than ours. (And they went through the majority of their flu season with no available vaccine). In addition, their demographics are similar to ours, and they have a modern health care system.

Now, as of mid-September, Australia had 131 deaths associated with H1N1 (confirmed). However, since so many people have claimed "I'm a healthy adult, I don't need the vaccine", lets only consider those in their mid-teens to 65 years, ignoring the elderly and young children. According to the statistics, 54 individuals in that age range died. There are 14.4 million people in that age range. Therefore, the change of dying from H1N1 is 0.00038%.

Compare the 2 numbers: In a country with a 'western' medical system but with no vaccine, your 'average' adult is 6 times more likely to die from H1N1 complications than they are from the vaccine.

Furthermore, when we're talking about the risks from the vaccine, the 1976 problems were an unusual. Such a reaction to the vaccine has never happened before or since.

http://www.nml-lnm.gc.ca/icu-h1n1-usi/a ... sponse.pdf

Granted, these ARE very small numbers... most people will either catch the flu and survive, or get lucky and avoid the flu... the question is, why actually risk it, even if its such a small chance and the vaccines are so cheap? (And not only that, we haven't even accounted for all the people who end up hospitalized.)

[segno]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

There was a BC study, reported on this site, showing that if you took the vaccine you doubled your chances of getting the flu. Meaning that the vaccine itself was shown to infect people in the study.

Actually, no... but thanks for playing.

- the study is as yet unpublished. So, no experts have been able to look at the thing for mistakes. (Until that happens, it should be considered a non-event)

- The study is not supported by data from other countries, giving even more reason to be skeptical

- The study did not suggest that the 'vaccine itself' infected people. It suggested that getting one vaccine somehow hampered the effects of another vaccine.

[Akhenaten]

Proculation Proculation:

Akhenaten Akhenaten:

No it was also last year...2008. Look it up. Since you don't want to put your 1 in 3 to the test or even compare it with last year amoung numerious nations including Canada then i'll conclude you don't really believe it yourself.

Because it was not last year but last spring !

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandemic_H1N1/09_virus

$1:

Humans have been affected since early 2009.

(sigh) You see the little "/09" after the virus Proc? What do you think that's there for?

H1N1 in 2008:
http://www.gideononline.com/blog/2009/0 ... d-in-2008/

H1N1 2008:
"In 2007-08, a significant increase in the prevalence of oseltamivir resistance was reported among influenza A (H1N1) viruses worldwide. During the 2007-08 influenza season, 10.9% of H1N1 viruses tested in the U.S. were resistant to oseltamivir."

http://www.cdc.gov/FLU/professionals/an ... ground.htm

A/H1N1 in 2008:
http://www.recombinomics.com/News/12200 ... a_100.html

-- whatever. You know what? I see no need to print a bunch of links to the obvious fact that this virus was a major concern last year since I know full well you must've when you looked up yourself when you brought the wiki link (which is about the pandemic of 2009 not H1N1 in general)....which means you're being less than honest here, right?

Proculation Proculation:

Akhenaten Akhenaten:

(one minute i need to get the vaccine or i have a 1 in 3 chancve of getting the flu....next minute i won't have that chance because everyone is getting vaccinated. Please pick a lane and stick with it ok? Eitehr I have a 1 in 3 chance of getting it because I didnt get vaccinated or I don't. Which is it?)

$1:

I just don't understand the logic here. When you can prevent, you do.

Because as mentioned before you can prevent it simply by ensuring your immune system is healthy. Those odds are better imo.

Studies showed that people have almost no immunity against that strain. So even "ensuring your immune system is healthy" won't do anything.

Yeah? I'd like to see that study please. Also i'd like you to confirm: either as you stated before the reason to get a vaccine is because you have a 1 in 3 chance of getting it or because there is a vaccine you don't have a 1 in 3 chance of getting it. Please address that.

[Proculation]

Brenda Brenda:

Because, in answer to your question, I refuse to put shit in my while my immune system should be able to fight it. It's not a deadly disease, you dont get anything from it (like you could from HPV, Rhubella, Polio, Malaria). Not everyone who gets the flu, dies. It is totally normal for a human being to have an immune system. I am not going to fuck with that. It is also totally normal for a human being to get sick once in a while. Why would you NOT let nature take its course?

Your immune system is not able to fight it since you do not have the antibodies. Creating those antibodies is exactly why you get vaccinated.

Yes it is normal to get sick but why would you want to ? We are in 2009 and we have the technology to not get that flu in a easy and safe way

$1:

Then again.. Where IS that swine flu vaccine? When can you get it? Lots of people already have some kind of flu.

I don't know in B.C. but here in Quebec it's very easy to find: http://vaccination.msss.gouv.qc.ca/index_en.php

[Akhenaten]

Sengo: collect all your counter points into one post so i can address them please. I'm no going to make 3 replies for 3 posts.

This:

$1:

In the past, the only serious side effect has been Guillme-Barre syndrom, a neurological disease that might be caused when the immune system reacts to the vaccination. (This problem may be serious, but it is very rarely fatal.)

No. I posted the actual study that shows us the side affects. You may consider anything short of death 'not serious' but I have a different opinion. As the document points out (by the company producing the vaccine BTW) I would have a 1 in 1000 chance of experiencing convulsions.

$1:

Lets look at the results in Australia. Their flu season occurs earlier in the year than ours. (And they went through the majority of their flu season with no available vaccine). In addition, their demographics are similar to ours, and they have a modern health care system.

Now, as of mid-September, Australia had 131 deaths associated with H1N1 (confirmed). However, since so many people have claimed "I'm a healthy adult, I don't need the vaccine", lets only consider those in their mid-teens to 65 years, ignoring the elderly and young children. According to the statistics, 54 individuals in that age range died. There are 14.4 million people in that age range. Therefore, the change of dying from H1N1 is 0.00038%.

Seems to me you only make my point for me here.

$1:

Well, there are a couple of reasons why the "sky didn't fall"...

- It is incorrect to say that there was "no" vaccine. The fact is, the vaccine did exist, just that production problems meant that not as many got the vaccine. But, many many people did.

- we may have got 'lucky'... the strains that were circulating probably were similar enough to the strains circulating the previous year that people may have had a partial immunity from previous year's vaccinations

- The flu itself may not have been a very severe strain, or easy to transmit

Wow. You sound pretty self-assured considering how many times you use the word 'may' there.
Face it: that's three guesses, not 3 reasons.

[segno]

raydan raydan:

The first legal immunity granted to the producers of vaccines was almost 30 years ago for children vaccines. We're talking vaccines that have almost not changed at all since then so why do they still need legal immunity?

Because, judges and the people who sit on juries are not experts in science and/or epidemiology. All that someone would need to do is trot out some sort of sad-sounding story and all of the scientific evidence in the world would not convince them.

Heck, look at some of the people in this thread... people like PublicAnimalNo9 have illustrated both an incredible lack of ability to understand the fundamentals of science, AND an inability to acutally learn, understand and reason. He actually gets some of his information off hollocaust-deniers web sites, and doesn't even think to question the quality of the source. And there's just as much chance for him to be selected for jury duty as myself.

[Proculation]

Akhenaten Akhenaten:

Proculation Proculation:

Akhenaten Akhenaten:

No it was also last year...2008. Look it up. Since you don't want to put your 1 in 3 to the test or even compare it with last year amoung numerious nations including Canada then i'll conclude you don't really believe it yourself.

Because it was not last year but last spring !

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandemic_H1N1/09_virus

$1:

Humans have been affected since early 2009.

(sigh) You see the little "/09" after the virus Proc? What do you think that's there for?

H1N1 in 2008:
http://www.gideononline.com/blog/2009/0 ... d-in-2008/

H1N1 2008:
"In 2007-08, a significant increase in the prevalence of oseltamivir resistance was reported among influenza A (H1N1) viruses worldwide. During the 2007-08 influenza season, 10.9% of H1N1 viruses tested in the U.S. were resistant to oseltamivir."

http://www.cdc.gov/FLU/professionals/an ... ground.htm

A/H1N1 in 2008:
http://www.recombinomics.com/News/12200 ... a_100.html

-- whatever. You know what? I see no need to print a bunch of links to the obvious fact that this virus was a major concern last year since I know full well you must've when you looked up yourself when you brought the wiki link (which is about the pandemic of 2009 not H1N1 in general)....which means you're being less than honest here, right?

The A/H1N1 virus is about 50% of all flu cases each year. In the seasonal flu vaccine, there's a protection for a A/H1N1 strain, a A/H3N2 strain and a B strain.

This year, it's another A/H1N1 strain that is more virulent. It's NOT the same strain from last year.[/quote]

Proculation Proculation:

Akhenaten Akhenaten:

(one minute i need to get the vaccine or i have a 1 in 3 chancve of getting the flu....next minute i won't have that chance because everyone is getting vaccinated. Please pick a lane and stick with it ok? Eitehr I have a 1 in 3 chance of getting it because I didnt get vaccinated or I don't. Which is it?)

$1:

I just don't understand the logic here. When you can prevent, you do.

Because as mentioned before you can prevent it simply by ensuring your immune system is healthy. Those odds are better imo.

Studies showed that people have almost no immunity against that strain. So even "ensuring your immune system is healthy" won't do anything.

Yeah? I'd like to see that study please. Also i'd like you to confirm: either as you stated before the reason to get a vaccine is because you have a 1 in 3 chance of getting it or because there is a vaccine you don't have a 1 in 3 chance of getting it. Please address that.[/quote]
I posted it some posts ago. "Children showed no cross-reactive antibody reaction to the new strain, adults aged 18 to 64 had 6-9%, and older adults 33%."

[Brenda]

Proculation Proculation:

Brenda Brenda:

Because, in answer to your question, I refuse to put shit in my while my immune system should be able to fight it. It's not a deadly disease, you dont get anything from it (like you could from HPV, Rhubella, Polio, Malaria). Not everyone who gets the flu, dies. It is totally normal for a human being to have an immune system. I am not going to fuck with that. It is also totally normal for a human being to get sick once in a while. Why would you NOT let nature take its course?

Your immune system is not able to fight it since you do not have the antibodies. Creating those antibodies is exactly why you get vaccinated.

Yes it is normal to get sick but why would you want to ? We are in 2009 and we have the technology to not get that flu in a easy and safe way

$1:

Then again.. Where IS that swine flu vaccine? When can you get it? Lots of people already have some kind of flu.

I don't know in B.C. but here in Quebec it's very easy to find: http://vaccination.msss.gouv.qc.ca/index_en.php

What a bullshit. I had the chickenpox, built immunity and will not get it again. I had Rhubella, built immunity, will not get it again. You will NOT build immunity against the flu, because it mutates. GEEESH! Whats so hard?? Getting sick means building antibodies.

IT IS A NORMAL NATURAL PROCEDURE for a human body to do that.

So because the technology exists, we shouild just blindly get along with everything, because someone thought of it? Sorry, NOT happening.