[roger-roger]

With that being said the new Boxer still lacks firepower.

[roger-roger]

Hehe and it still doesnt look like something you could live out of for a month+, where do you strap your cots, food, and water?

[Scape]

Considering the Boxer can be moved via Herc and the LAV III can't that makes supply issues a concern more for the LAV.

Besides the best firepower will always be the radio.

[roger-roger]

Scape Scape:

Besides the best firepower will always be the radio.

I actually cried a little I was laughing so hard.

Joking aside, the fact you can move one of the boxers by a herc doesnt mean much. We are supposed to be getting the C-17 and apparently those can move a pair of Leopard IIs.

When you are stuck in the Gorrak valley for *edit*4*edit* weeks you need spots to strap your food, water, and shelter to. You dont have much room inside because that is also filled with food, water and ammo.

The radio is NOT a substitute for firepower, just because you can call in arty or an air strike doesn’t mean your going to get it. I was on many Ops where indirect fire was not authorized. Besides nothing scares a person more then the thump thump thump of a 25mm cannon. A waist high mud wall will stop 7.62, it wont stop a 25mm HE round.

But hey Im a engineer, and I have never been close to a Boxer, they might be better, but from what I have seen with the internet, I highly doubt it.

[roger-roger]

As a side note, returning RPG fire with the C6 (7.62) was one of the dumbest things we did on tour. After a rocket sailed over the LAV we switched to coaxial (7.62) after the second RPG landed 3 m from the vehicle we switched to 25mm and didnt really look back.

So yes the Boxer as well as the ELAV and the Bison lack firepower, the Bison is worse off since it does not have a RWS.

[fifeboy]

Eisensapper Eisensapper:

fifeboy fifeboy:

Thanks. Why the knife?

The knife is a perfect example of a make work contract for a Canadian company. The knife is overpriced and is of poor quality. The Defense Minister caught flak from Liz May during the election because he did not renew the contract last year, he instead got a new contract with a Chinese supplier for a new knife.
Chances are the new knife will be just as bad or worse, but at least we will be spending less for it. Personally I went out and bought my own knife, the gov issued knife just sits in my truck for when I need to open a package or cut tape on a box.

Thanks. Buy ya a pint.

[Scape]

Hercs don't use the same runways the C-17 does. Thus, you can do more with less because you don't need a runway as long or as solid.

Support fire is never meant to be a substitute for direct fire but an APC is not meant to be a MBT either and it's a hell of an improvement over the proposed Mobile Gun System.

Last, the LAV is still a good piece of kit but there will always be room for design improvements. A 10 ton will carry far more then a LAV can but you won't see 10 tons outside the wire either. Right tool for the right job.

[roger-roger]

Scape Scape:

Hercs don't use the same runways the C-17 does. Thus, you can do more with less because you don't need a runway as long or as solid.

You can still only fly one on a Herc, flying a Boxer one at a time in is not a efficent means of deployment.

Scape Scape:

Support fire is never meant to be a substitute for direct fire but an APC is not meant to be a MBT either and it's a hell of an improvement over the proposed [url=http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/cdnmilitary/equipment.html]Mobile Gun System.

Indirect fire is a substitute, its for when direct fire is ineffective. The MGS was a failed experiment, it was an attempted at saving money. The CF wanted firepower with mobility, and they thought they could save money if they used the LAV chassis. Ultimately a 25mm is a shit ton more effective then small arms fire. The only advantage of having the RWS is that there is more room. Now special engineer units need this extra room for kit, but the majority of sections do just fine with less room since they dont have the requirement.

Scape Scape:

Last, the LAV is still a good piece of kit but there will always be room for design improvements. A 10 ton will carry far more then a LAV can but you won't see 10 tons outside the wire either. Right tool for the right job.

HLVWs (10 Ton Trucks) do go outside the wire, they are what supply the FOBs and Legers.

I still dont think the Boxer is that much of an improvement, it may be better then the LAV III but I just dont see it. The only major advantage is the range it has.

[EyeBrock]

I thnk we are missing another point here. We've had numerous threads on CF equipment.

Doesn't anybody think it's a bit strange that Martin is commenting on this now? He was on Rick Mercer, was chatting with that annoying Irish guy on the Business Network and has been on the Liberal leaning radio talk show's such as CFRB's John Moore show, now why is that?

Oh yea, he's got a book out........

[Scape]

Eisensapper Eisensapper:

Scape Scape:

Hercs don't use the same runways the C-17 does. Thus, you can do more with less because you don't need a runway as long or as solid.

You can still only fly one on a Herc, flying a Boxer one at a time in is not a efficent means of deployment.

My point was that it could be done, thus adding operational flexibility. Not that it was the most effective deployment. Besides, Hercs are more available then C-17's.

Eisensapper Eisensapper:

Indirect fire is a substitute, its for when direct fire is ineffective.

Your point being? Modular design of the Boxer means it can use TOW or a GPMG or a Phalanx if need be so I don't see your issue here.

Eisensapper Eisensapper:

I still dont think the Boxer is that much of an improvement, it may be better then the LAV III but I just dont see it. The only major advantage is the range it has.

And that it can be repaired on the fly and the design lends its crew better protection and that it has better range... in other words a better design as per my original point. Thanks for verifying that.

[Bruce_the_vii]

Harper was in a minority position and had to spend the surplus. If he left it the Liberals would have made promises to spend in an election and these would be popular. A minority government, no surpluses.

In addition, for people that didn't check this out, a balanced budget is paying down the debt. The debt is like a mortgage and there's the inflation portion of the interest payment. This decreases the real principle. That's the payment on the debt. So with inflation of 2% and a balanced budget you are paying down the debt by 2%. This is the way it's going to be done. Don't forget the debt, Trudeau and Mulroney decreed that you'd be paying for their political spending for the rest of your life.

[roger-roger]

Scape Scape:

in other words a better design as per my original point. Thanks for verifying that.

Didnt say it was, just that it might be, I am going to with hold judgement untill I see the beast up close.

BTW there are also Javelin and TOW mods for the LAV III as well.