[desertdude]

andyt andyt:

Ultimately then you can't blame any religion for the acts of its followers unless the religion specifically tells them to do those acts. And that gets complicated.

That IS correct, IMO there is no bad religion in the world or one that actually asks its followers to incite violence. Its the individuals, mostly for personal gain manipulate and use it for their own gains, whether it be some church minister scamming the worshipers for money or someone like A.Qaeda inciting violence for its political means. And no religion is immune from it, even the so called ever peaceful Buddhist as was the recent case with the Rohingyas of Burma.

andyt andyt:

I don't know much about the Qur'an, but have certainly seen passages quoted that say to do some pretty horrific things. Same with the OT. Supposedly Jesus obviated the OT, but why then keep it?

I can almost 100% bet you that those are the choice out of context juicy bits the loon media loves to quote. Those have been explained and you hardly see those anymore, unlike the years following 9/11 where not a day went by without someone making a stink over them. As for the bible I really can't say but I am sure its a similar story.

andyt andyt:

Alright, let's not blame religion, but only what people do in the name of it. But certainly there seem to be way more nutbars doing evil in the name of Islam than any other religion. And where their co-religionists need to step up more is condemning that unequivocally. There are lots of Christians who criticize what's done in the name of Christianity than there are Muslims doing same for their religion.

That might true but you the whole situation is exaggerated when when even the smallest of the non stories are embellished and splashed across the headlines. As an example how many times have we heard about the Lords Resistance Army and openly christian group doing its thing in the name if the lord and its atrocities. Working on creating a state based on the 10 commandments. In all my time here I don't think there has been even one thread or post on it. Like Jon Stewart once very wisely said, if you amplify everything you dont hear anything.

The condemnation part is the same, there is enough of it but one has to go looking for it. Almost every religious personality and organizations releases statements condemning any major act of violence but they hardly make it your eyes. But I can say the same. I've never actually seen any condemnation from the Christian community about anything ? In fact as you very well saw we have a member squealing and writhing and doing all sorts of mental gymnatics in order to avoid doing so, but in any case that doesn't mean the Christian community at large condones any such actions. Here is something you might find interesting to read http://www.huffingtonpost.com/qasim-ras ... 25564.html

[andyt]

Lord's Resistance Army - never heard of them, as is your point.

As for condemnation, both what i've seen in person and on the media, no, the Muslim community needs to step up there. Christianity is mature and secure enough, there is plenty of condemnation of what other Christians do. Just take the homosexuality thing forinstance. Hell some denominations have gay married functionaries. Meanwhile, Muslims seem relutant to condemn the practices. I posted of one such instance here, about a story about the RCMP doing outreach to Muslim communities, and bearing fruit with 2 Canadians terrorist plots reported to the RCMP. But at a meeting between the RCMP and Muslim leaders, there was some Muslim they interviewed who would not condemn the actions of the plotters, protesting "you told me you wouldn't ask me that." Far too much of "I understand their motivation" when Muslims do evil, like "Canada is in Afghanistan, so I can understand why people want to commit terror here" Sorry, that just doesn't fly with me.

I only read the first part of your link. But right there: those shootings by white men were condemned by Christians and non-Christians alike. It's just there wasn't any Christian motives involved by the shooters. IT's not even clear if they were practicing Christians. OTOH, the Boston bombers did seem to have Muslim ideology in mind, when they acted. And at least the older brother was a radicalized Muslim. So they didn't act because Islam told them so - OK. But they did act because they thought Islam told them so.

So we don't see eye to eye here. Yes on CKA it's all black and white, and Christians doing evil things in the name of Christianity are just aberrations, while Muslims doing evil in the name of Islam are indicative of all Muslims. But in the real world, where the grownups live, I think Muslims have some catching up to do in fighting against the evil done in the name of their religion.

[desertdude]

Like I said there is enough condemnation it just never makes the headlines, you can give it a shot. Google any incident and then specifically look for condemnation statements, because they will never come up on a simple search. You have to go looking for them.

For an example I took the Benghazi Embassy Attacks no amount of searching brought them up because they get pushed down way down the list by the other crap. Unless I specially searched for them, two examples from many from that

http://middleeastvoices.voanews.com/201 ... air-96980/

http://www.iscf.org/media/news/muslims- ... ks-on.html

Also you just know about the one plot being foiled because of Muslim tip offs when in reality there are a lot more, bet you also didn't hear about these too

$1:

October 2001: The conviction of “Portland 7” case was substantially helped after a local police officer encountered the suspects engaged in target practice. The police officer was sent to the area after a local citizen notified police he heard gunfire.

September 2002: Members of the “Lackawanna 6” are arrested. FBI first becomes aware of their activities in June 2001 when a local Muslim community member tips off the FBI.

April 2003: A citizen notifies local police after he mistakenly receives a suspicious package sent by anti-government terrorist William Krar. The tip-off starts a Federal investigation eventually leads to Krar’s arrest and the discovery of small arms and chemical weaponry.

June 2003: FBI receives two tips from community members notifying them “military-style training” being conducted suspect by Ali Al-Tamimi. The tips start an investigation leading to the arrest of the “Paintball 11” in Northern Virginia.

August 2004: James Elshafay and Shahwar Matin Siraj are arrested largely based on the controversial use of an informant in the investigation. However NYPD were first notified of Siraj after a Muslim community member anonymously notifies New York police about consistently troubling rhetoric coming from the suspect.

February 2006: Muslim community members in Ohio provide information help into arrest and eventually convict 3 suspects planning attacks in Iraq.

August 2006: British authorities arrest a group of British Muslim violent extremists suspected of plotting to blow up several airplanes over the Atlantic. Authorities first become aware of the plot based on a tip from a Muslim community member.

November 2006: Neo-Nazi terrorist Demetrius “Van” Crocker is arrested after an investigation is set in motion by a tip-off from a concerned citizen.

November 2006: Adnan Babar Mirza, a Pakistani national studying in Houston, TX and is arrested for illegal firearms training and possession. Adnan come to the attention of the FBI when local Houston community members tip them off about Adnan’s activities and alleged intentions.

October 2008: Neo-Nazis Daniel Cowart and Paul Schesselman are arrested by local police, who received a tip from a concerned friend of the two suspects, before seeking to go on a shooting spree against African-Americans.

July 2009: Mosque leaders in Raleigh, North Carolina contact law enforcement to notify them of “violent, threatening action… considered to be dangerous” leading to the arrest of Daniel Boyd and 6 other individuals.

September 2009: Queens Imam Ahmad Afazali, a community liaison to the NYPD, helps local police and the FBI in the investigation and arrest of suspect Najibullah Zazi. Though Zazi is initially accused of tipping off Zazi to police surveillance, information in the court complaint and corroborating reporting from mainstream media sources found this notion to be false. (Afzali was, however, deported on charges of lying to FBI agents, but subsequent media reporting also strengthens Afzali’s claims that he was scapegoat for getting caught up in a turf battle between NYPD and FBI officials.)

November 2009: Five Virginia Muslim youth are arrested in Pakistan, allegedly seeking to join a terrorist group, after family members told American federal authorities they went missing.

March 2010: Michigan Militia member and Muslim convert Matt Savino refuses aid to a fugitive member of the Hutaree Militia and instead helps law enforcement authorities track him down.

April 2010: Senegalese Muslim Alioune Niass first spots the suspicious vehicle used as a bomb to attack Times Square in New York City. Clues from the vehicle and defused explosive immediately led to the suspect, Faisal Shahzad’s, arrest.

June 2010: Suspects Mohammed Mahmoud Alessa and Carlos Eduardo Almonte are arrested, after the FBI first receives an anonymous report in 2006 from one of the suspects’ family members. News reports indicate one of Alessa’s family members provided the tip.

October 2010: Former Hawaii resident Abdel Hamid Shehadeh is arrested for attempting to join the Taliban. Local media noted that the Muslim Association of Hawaii “assisted law enforcement agencies in the case” and that it has “in the past reported suspicious activities.”

October 2010: Farooque Ahmed is arrested on charges of allegedly attempting to bomb the Washington, DC metro railway system. The FBI first learns of Ahmed’s intentions from a community tip-off.

October 2010: An attempt by Al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula to bomb Western targets using air cargo transportation is prevented by US and European authorities. Intelligence that prevented the plot came from ex-militant Jabr al-Faifi, who voluntarily handed himself into Saudi authorities.

November 2010: Mohamed Osman Mohamud is arrested for attempting to bomb a Christmas tree-lighting ceremony in Portland, Oregon. The New York Times notes, “In the Oregon [Mohamud] case, the FBI received a tip from a Portland Muslim.”

December 2010: Antonio Martinez is arrested for attempting to bomb a military recruiting center in Maryland. Statements from Justice Department officials indicate a Muslim community member reported Martinez to the FBI during its ongoing investigation.

June 2011: Two Al-Qaeda inspired violent criminals planning to attack a military installation in Seattle are arrested by law enforcement. FBI officials first become aware of the planned attack after a fellow Muslim who was trying to be recruited into the conspiracy went to Seattle Police and informed them of the plot.

January 2012: Violent Al-Qaeda sympathizer Sami Osmakac is arrested for planning to attack several sites in Tampa, Florida using guns and explosives. The U.S. Attorney for Central Florida noted, “This investigation was also predicated, in part, by assistance from the Muslim community.”

Read more at http://www.beliefnet.com/columnists/cit ... xrc2vdu.99

http://www.beliefnet.com/columnists/cit ... -data.html

So basically yeah even after all this if you still maintain that the Muslim community at large does not do enough to thwart such actions / not enough condemnation or just plain out condones acts of terrorism then I guess me and you will just have to agree to disagree on this then.

[andyt]

Good that you published that list. I hope others on here read it. Maybe it's just that the media plays up where a Muslim refuses to condemn a fellow Muslim, and not where Muslims do. My impression tho is still that there don't seem to be all that many casual Muslims the way there are casual Christians. So more so Muslims seem to have that Islam ueber alles thing going on vs the majority of Christians. We'll probably disagree on that one.

I do think you can do this forum a service tho where you publish lists like the above - if you can take the shit and abuse that probably comes with it. Keep up the good work.

[GreenTiger]

andyt andyt:

Good that you published that list. I hope others on here read it. Maybe it's just that the media plays up where a Muslim refuses to condemn a fellow Muslim, and not where Muslims do. My impression tho is still that there don't seem to be all that many casual Muslims the way there are casual Christians. So more so Muslims seem to have that Islam ueber alles thing going on vs the majority of Christians. We'll probably disagree on that one.

I do think you can do this forum a service tho where you publish lists like the above - if you can take the shit and abuse that probably comes with it. Keep up the good work.

There are many Muslims I wouldn't call them "casual" as they observe the rules including the "pleasantness" ones such as Ramadan but he folks I know of are pretty open minded and are very good pleasant people. I work with a number of them.

One of my wif's Drs is a very observant fellow and he is very gentle caring individual in fact some of his staff are so impressed by this man's character that they have converted to Islam. They are very very far from the "Islam Uber Alles" bit. They just want to do their thing in our society which is what we are all about. They are even more nauseated about this stuff than we are, most likely because they have to read unpleasant reactions from non-moslems, including me at times.

[desertdude]

andyt andyt:

Good that you published that list. I hope others on here read it. Maybe it's just that the media plays up where a Muslim refuses to condemn a fellow Muslim, and not where Muslims do. My impression tho is still that there don't seem to be all that many casual Muslims the way there are casual Christians. So more so Muslims seem to have that Islam ueber alles thing going on vs the majority of Christians. We'll probably disagree on that one.

I do think you can do this forum a service tho where you publish lists like the above - if you can take the shit and abuse that probably comes with it. Keep up the good work.

Well as you said we will disagree on that one. Islam is very central to a Muslim but that does not stop him or her from living a normal life. Just because you pray daily and fast in Ramadan and try your best not to steal, lie, cheat, be good to others etc etc ( basics of any religion really ) does not make it an ueber alles thing. You might find it so maybe because one might show his devotion by keeping a beard, wearing a scarf, not eating pork or drinking etc etc but that does not make it so. Maybe you might fond it odd but you might also find a fat man wearing a thong in public odd too but thats just down to your own personal comfort levels.

But I also understand there are these holier than thou( wannabe )religious condesending pricks and you are not the only one who sees them that way. You know for them you are never a good muslim or muslim enough and they constaly look down on you. Quite a lot of them if not all tend to be racist bigots too and probably you get that vibe of get out of my sight you unclean infidel from them. IMO these people don't deserve to live anywhere other than some taliban infested cave.

And as we can see from a few posters here you too have such a problem so the door swings both way but the brown ones stand out a little bit more in your field of vision because its natural to notice something you are not used to seeing too often.

[andyt]

@DD and GT. What I meant of casual vs ueber alles is religious who see their primary identity as that religion, vs being of a nation, or a family or what have you. Nothing wrong with that inherently, but it then makes for, I think, a reluctance to criticize others of your faith in front of other faiths because you feel you are betraying your primary identity. We have lots of nominal Christians, who see themselves as Christian, but it's not their primary identity. I think this can lead to less problems in them identifying with other Christians and ignoring the evil some do. I think there are more Muslims who do this.

None of this say all Muslims are like this, or make excuses or even tacitly support the evil. Just plenty do. Maybe also because so many Muslims live in primitive backward societies compared to the West. This is no pc to say, and may sound arrogant, but I think it has validity.

[desertdude]

andyt andyt:

@DD and GT. What I meant of casual vs ueber alles is religious who see their primary identity as that religion, vs being of a nation, or a family or what have you. Nothing wrong with that inherently, but it then makes for, I think, a reluctance to criticize others of your faith in front of other faiths because you feel you are betraying your primary identity. We have lots of nominal Christians, who see themselves as Christian, but it's not their primary identity. I think this can lead to less problems in them identifying with other Christians and ignoring the evil some do. I think there are more Muslims who do this.

None of this say all Muslims are like this, or make excuses or even tacitly support the evil. Just plenty do. Maybe also because so many Muslims live in primitive backward societies compared to the West. This is no pc to say, and may sound arrogant, but I think it has validity.

Once again I think we are going to disagree on this one

I or many have absolutely no qualms about criticizing any Muslim in front of a Christian, jew etc etc. Because mostly what they are on about is not really part of Islam or/and is simply wrong. I think I might have done that over here also. I surely remember mentioning how much love I have for the Palestinians and sometimes wonder if they deserve what they are getting for being such A.holes when you meet them in person. Same with Iran and Saudi. I have condemned and criticized all sorts of acts of violence and terrorism and the so has the community at large as mentioned previous posts. But of course won't stand for needless, pointless and plain old bigoted and ignorant bashing. Most threads here are started with that notion and intention and even if they not soon descend into that before you even have the chance to actually comment on the topic. So mostly its just better to keep clear of the circle jerk and not waste your time "debating" with them. And honestly nowadays I dont even have the time anymore. There has been a welcomed lull in my real life activity so I am able to provide a little input on some topics of late.

But again I also understand what you are saying there are people from very conservative backgrounds who do feel that way but again that also does not mean that they condone or don't condemn such with in their own circles. Call it peer pressure or what ever.

I also agree the economic situation of most countries with a sizeable Muslim population is bleak i.e third world or just plain living in a despotic country, with a serious lack of education and that IMO is the biggest problem. There is no exposure to the world they live in. All their information is from heavily biased state or some politically sponsored media and their religious knowledge from illiterate mullahs and imams who don't have a clue about anything anyways and mostly placed there by landlords, politicians etc etc to do their bidding rather than provide religious guidance.

So over all yes it is a bit of a mess and there are no short terms solutions and very little done by the so called muslim countries who are in a much better situation to actually improve this. rather they are more interested in protecting their own wealth and interests and creating sectarianism. Not unlike any other country in the world really.

But at the end of the day none of this is Islams fault and in fact the problem persists because it is not being followed properly. Islam goes out of its way it its teaching to look out and ensure the rights of others more than yourself regardless of race or religion. As I am sure is the case with most religions i.e love thy neigbour sort of stuff.

Hope that's helpful