[andyt]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

andyt andyt:

Pretty vicious stuff there, Bart, to wish intolerable suffering on me.

Not at all. I'm just passing along my sincere best wishes that you get to benefit from the policies that you promote.

Or is this only a good policy to you when it applies to other people?

In order to "benefit" from this policy, I would have to suffer from a grievous and irremediable medical condition and that i have to face the grim decision of whether to ask for death because my suffering has become so intolerable. That is what you are wishing one me.

I am glad that if it comes to it, and I face that choice, will be allowed to make it, and if I choose, end my life in a relatively pain free way. Personally I go further, and say that if I'm no longer able to make the choice in an informed manner, please somebody make it for me. But nobody has to make that choice that doesn't want to - it doesn't affect you one bit.

[andyt]

Canadian_Mind Canadian_Mind:

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

Thanos Thanos:

The right to die, or to choose the manner and moment of one's death, should be seen as the paramount right of all rights.

I find the right to life is the paramount right as no other right has meaning without the right to live.

I think the right to die/right to death cover the same thing. I agree with Thanos that it is the individual's right to choose when he/she dies. All other rights stem from this.

Nobody is taking anybody's right to live away from them with this decision. Want to keep on living, feel free.

[BartSimpson]

I'm at the point in my life where I don't care if someone wants to off themselves. Have at it.

But I have a fundamental problem with assisted suicide because there's going to be a fuzzy line between assistance and murder. The 'slippery slope' argument definitely applies here as we've seen some European countries go from assisting someone to voluntarily commit suicide to having your doctors make the choice for you.

And that's murder.

[Thanos]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

I'm at the point in my life where I don't care if someone wants to off themselves. Have at it.

But I have a fundamental problem with assisted suicide because there's going to be a fuzzy line between assistance and murder. The 'slippery slope' argument definitely applies here as we've seen some European countries go from assisting someone to voluntarily commit suicide to having your doctors make the choice for you.

And that's murder.

Putting an end to the interfering shenanigans of church busybodies, or from the completely laughable we-care-about-you bullshit the *governments keep pushing, or the nonsense from the shrinks and psychiatrists with their 'a miracle medication is just around the corner' propaganda should be something that anyone who believes in genuine liberty and freedom should support. Whether it's physical agony or unrelenting emotional/mental torment every single one of us has the absolute right to stop playing the goddamn game when they no longer have the strength to continue. No one else, period, has the right to interfere with that decision. The slippery-slope argument has been thoroughly debunked on this issue, and on so many other issues too, that it's good to see the courts not wasting their time in acknowledging it.

* they care about the tax revenue you generate for them during the course of your life, and that's all they care about. once you're all used up and they've squished everything out of you that they can get they'll happily dispose of you with no more concern that they would about flushing away a used Kleenex. and all governments and all political parties are 100% exactly the fucking same.

[Jabberwalker]

I will be very concerned when it becomes common practice for those with power of attorney to be making the death decision on behalf of "old Dad", who can't express himself anymore, you see.

I'm heading into that age in a another couple of decades and I have little faith that the Gen-Xers are willing to carry me in my dotage ... especially when a third of the population is sucking up all of the health care money for Gerontology.

[Thanos]

Jabberwalker Jabberwalker:

I will be very concerned when it becomes common practice for those with power of attorney to be making the death decision on behalf of "old Dad", who can't express himself anymore, you see.

I'm heading into that age in a another couple of decades and I have little faith that the Gen-Xers are willing to carry me in my dotage ... especially when a third of the population is sucking up all of the health care money for Gerontology.

The Millenials are a massive generation, almost as big in numbers as the Boomers were. The Boomers didn't go around randomly gassing the WW1 & 2 generations to get them out of the way when they became inconvenient, so there's little reason to believe that the Millenials would do it either.

The only ones who do things like that are the totalitarian dictatorships, and what they do is as far away from anything that happens in the partially-enlightened world as it can get. Comparing their mass killings to an entirely sensible assisted suicide policy is as ridiculous as when some fuckwit Charlie Church from the 24-hour cable-news cycle decides to directly compare Western atheists to the anti-religion policies of the Soviets or Nazis. Things like that are the territory of propagandists who are incapable of making a sensible argument on anything so they automatically go nuclear and try to discredit their enemies with bogus strawman comparisons. They barely qualify as adults and shouldn't be taken seriously by anyone who actually has some functioning brain cells to rub together.

[Tricks]

I learned today a lot of hospital staff have been doing this for a while through "slow codes". Found that to be an interesting loop hole.

[Freakinoldguy]

For the record I'm in favour of this law but only as long as there are safeguards in place so well meaning assholes can't start offing their patients to save the Gov't a buck and putting mom and pop into a nursing home isn't the first step in the process of having them declared incompetent before a yellow pages search to find one of those dollar saving medical practitioners to help assist in their suicide, this should work fine. But given the lack of a solid criteria there's some real chances for abuse and saying that it won't happen is just more rainbows and unicorn farts from the Supreme court.


So, the first time this goes off the rails and we find out they offed someone that they shouldn't have, I want the death penalty brought back in immediately so we can commence humanely putting people out of the misery of having to live with the psychological and physical trauma of their transgressions. Because like it or not this is a form of state sanctioned murder and what's good for the progressive should be good for the conservative.

Therefore given the circumstances in play, living wills will now become even more important than ever. When you're in the type of pain and suffering that will make you kill yourself, chances are that you're not going to be fully cognizant of what's happening around you at decision time, especially if they're giving you heavy doses of meds which will probably make the assisted suicide questionable at best.

So, better to have you wishes written down beforehand, then even if you're not all there at least your beneficiaries and the Gov't can't be making that fateful final decision for you.

[Freakinoldguy]

Tricks Tricks:

I learned today a lot of hospital staff have been doing this for a while through "slow codes". Found that to be an interesting loop hole.

I wonder how many people who didn't want to die because of these "slow codes" did which, brings us back to potential abuse by the medical profession who are now becoming god and the Gov't who is always wanting to save money on treating the terminally sick and elderly.

[Regina]

Tricks Tricks:

I learned today a lot of hospital staff have been doing this for a while through "slow codes". Found that to be an interesting loop hole.

Decades.

[Freakinoldguy]

Regina Regina:

Tricks Tricks:

I learned today a lot of hospital staff have been doing this for a while through "slow codes". Found that to be an interesting loop hole.

Decades.

And yet the kept my father inlaw alive for 3 years after he'd begged them to let him die. Are they playing God already?

[Brenda]

The way I know it is that every doctor will be investigated after and charged with murder if it was not done according to protocol.
There is a huge amount of paperwork involved, independent medical exams (only papers) by independent second opinion physicians, and no, your brother cannot give consent on your behalf.

[Brenda]

Jabberwalker Jabberwalker:

I will be very concerned when it becomes common practice for those with power of attorney to be making the death decision on behalf of "old Dad", who can't express himself anymore, you see.

I'm heading into that age in a another couple of decades and I have little faith that the Gen-Xers are willing to carry me in my dotage ... especially when a third of the population is sucking up all of the health care money for Gerontology.

if the patient can't express themselves anymore, it will not happen and they will have to suffer till they die a natural death.

[Unsound]

My concern, as others have also said, is psychological issues. Can someone with clinical depression really be considered competent to make this decision?

[andyt]

Unsound Unsound:

My concern, as others have also said, is psychological issues. Can someone with clinical depression really be considered competent to make this decision?

Which is why there for psychological suffering there should be a wait period where the person receives intensive treatment. But not all depression can be cured, so ultimately they need to be allowed the same freedom as others who find their life intolerable. Otherwise the argument would be that you feel so bad you want to die so that makes you incompetent to judge and you have to live. If you only felt better then we'd let you receive assisted death. Joseph Heller would love it.

Another argument the no side brings up is that we should be spending more on palliative care so people wouldn't wan't to commit suicide. We've had 100 years of doctor assisted dying being illegal, and we don't spend enough on palliative care or mental health care. Only 16% of the population is in a position of avail itself of it. I would be very mistrustful of the argument that "let's keep assisted dying illegal and we'll pour lots more resources in palliative care." Heard that one before.

The reason for safeguards is that nobody feels pressured into asking for assisted death. Otherwise, it's not really ours to judge why they find life so intolerable they want to end it - that's up to them. I think there's still a strong Christian strain in this discussion - the idea that we're sinners, deserve suffering, and are cheating God if we end it.

Arguments that I've heard on the radio is that in places this is legal, very few people avail themselves of it - there's not some huge rush to the killing room. It's more that people find comfort in knowing they can choose the time of their death if it gets too bad. For further exposition on the comfort of suicide, read Steppenwolf.