[Hyack]

And just what does anyone have to say about these ladies and their head coverings?

[bambu]

I say they're fine...all faces can be clearly seen for identification/gender determination.

[Unsound]

Hyack Hyack:

And just what does anyone have to say about these ladies and their head coverings?

Clockwork Orange pt. 2?

[llama66]

I don't see this surviving a constitutional challenge.

[JaredMilne]

Jabberwalker Jabberwalker:

"...people like me" ?

What kid of people are those?

I don't have any problem living in a multicultural environment but I think that official multiculturalism in Canada has been a failure. It encourages people to live separately from each other, to advertise that they are different and often to feel superior to the rest of us because of this fetish of 'differentness". My own background is somewhat multicultural as is almost anyone who's family has been in North America as long as mine has (14 generations).

This place is much greater than the sum of its parts, so stop trying so hard to be "a part" and join in the greater Canada. Official multiculturalism has been a failure, in the long run.

So, what kind of horrible monster does that make me?

It doesn't.

Multiculturalism, in my view, would work much better if it was meant to show how new immigrants and their cultures specifically integrate into Canadian society and contribute to its evolution, not just to do the "ghettoization" that some people try and get away with.

Let's face it-you have to speak good English and/or French if you want to get along in this country. And, by and large, we have three major, founding ethnocultural groups here-the Anglophone, Francophone and Aboriginal. However, these groups are not (and never should have been) limited to one ethnicity. Anybody who comes to this country, makes an effort to learn our languages and participate in society has just as much right to call themselves an Anglophone or Francophone Canadian as a white person whose ancestors came here 300 years ago-and as interracial marriages continue and Aboriginal communities develop in their own right, I don't see why the same thing couldn't happen with Aboriginal Canadians. These founding groups do not disappear, but they do change and evolve along with everything else about Canada.

When it comes to history and identity, I think multiculturalism to emphasize how specific groups have contributed to Canada specifically. Examples would be the black community in the Maritimes, the Ukrainian community in Alberta, the Asian communties in B.C., and so on. Let's celebrate the contributions they've made to Canada as artists, as entrepreneurs, as politicians, and so on. If they want to teach their kids their ancestral languages, play their music, cook their cuisine, introduce their country's sports, and so on, they're more than welcome to do so-that's nobody's business but theirs.

And besides, plenty of immigrants already do this anyway, and Canada is made all the richer because of it.

[Jabberwalker]

Hyack Hyack:

And just what does anyone have to say about these ladies and their head coverings?

Oh-Oh! ... guinea pig eaters ...

[Jabberwalker]

plenty of immigrants already do this anyway, and Canada is made all the richer because of it.


Immigration isn't the issue. This is a nation of (mostly) immigrants. We need them in fact. There is a natural time lag before one is fully integrated into North American life, granted. it is a really bad idea, though, to establish separate ethnic enclaves, here so that one need not integrate, ever. Take a look at the Middle East if you want to see what the net result of non-integration looks like.

[JaredMilne]

Jabberwalker Jabberwalker:

Immigration isn't the issue. This is a nation of (mostly) immigrants. We need them in fact. There is a natural time lag before one is fully integrated into North American life, granted. it is a really bad idea, though, to establish separate ethnic enclaves, here so that one need not integrate, ever. Take a look at the Middle East if you want to see what the net result of non-integration looks like.

I never said immigration was the issue. What I said was that we need to change the aims and direction of multiculturalism so that it puts things into a specifically Canadian context, including how various immigrant groups actively become part of and contribute to our three major founding communities.

One of my old coworkers, for instance, was a Muslim guy from Pakistan who spoke to everyone in English, enrolled his kids in French immersion school and jokingly asked us not to tell his wife when he ate at an office potluck during Ramadan. It was his business if he chose to teach his ancestral language to his family or speak it at home, as would whatever religion he chose to raise them in.

That guy and lots of others like him have made a laudable effort to integrate, and did everything he could have been reasonably asked to. For that reason he has just as much right to call himself an English/Anglophone Canadian as I do.

Guys like him are not the problem. The problem stems from those "ethnic enclaves", as you correctly put it, that in effect cocoon themselves without even trying to integrate. My point was that I agreed with you, and I was trying to illustrate how I think things ought to change.

[Unsound]

You're right in essence, but I don't think you guys are taking a properly long view. The ethnic enclaves come into being once there is a certain critical mass of immigrants from the same culture. That's why some of the Asian, African, and Middle Eastern communities seem to be so new to us. They've always been here but not so noticeable before. They'll continue growing for a while, and everyone will freak out about it... and then the kids and grandkids will start marrying people from outside their culture and in time the "ghettos" will disappear, or turn into tourist attractions. How exclusive or "non-Canadian" is little Italy in your town?

[Jabberwalker]

Unsound Unsound:

You're right in essence, but I don't think you guys are taking a properly long view. The ethnic enclaves come into being once there is a certain critical mass of immigrants from the same culture. That's why some of the Asian, African, and Middle Eastern communities seem to be so new to us. They've always been here but not so noticeable before. They'll continue growing for a while, and everyone will freak out about it... and then the kids and grandkids will start marrying people from outside their culture and in time the "ghettos" will disappear, or turn into tourist attractions. How exclusive or "non-Canadian" is little Italy in your town?

Very.

I worked in the heart of a really large Italian enclave for a decade and a half and they truly believe that they are better than the rest of us in every measurable way. We are mere "mange cakes". Canada accomplished nothing until the Italians came along and took leadership of the place. You can see Italian flags flying from every second rooftop, on every car, on most sweatshirts but the Maple Leaf? ... nowhere in sight. They really like themselves, don't like "outsider foreigners" (read; everyone else) much and they sure like to blow their horns when an Italian team wins something. If a Canadian team wins something? Nothing.

[CanadianJeff]

This won't survive a court challenge. Still it's nice to see that at least they understand the concept all or nothing when it comes to religious rights.

What I think they should have tried to pass is legislation allowing any business or service to set rules on what religious items can or cannot be worn or used on their premise if it can be shown to reasonably effect security.

It could be argued that the right to general safety is more important then the ability of a woman to wear a full Burqa or for anyone to carry a ceremonial knife.

[bootlegga]

Unsound Unsound:

You're right in essence, but I don't think you guys are taking a properly long view. The ethnic enclaves come into being once there is a certain critical mass of immigrants from the same culture. That's why some of the Asian, African, and Middle Eastern communities seem to be so new to us. They've always been here but not so noticeable before. They'll continue growing for a while, and everyone will freak out about it... and then the kids and grandkids will start marrying people from outside their culture and in time the "ghettos" will disappear, or turn into tourist attractions. How exclusive or "non-Canadian" is little Italy in your town?

Solid points in this thread - I'd rep if I could.

[ShepherdsDog]

Unsound Unsound:

You're right in essence, but I don't think you guys are taking a properly long view. The ethnic enclaves come into being once there is a certain critical mass of immigrants from the same culture. That's why some of the Asian, African, and Middle Eastern communities seem to be so new to us. They've always been here but not so noticeable before. They'll continue growing for a while, and everyone will freak out about it... and then the kids and grandkids will start marrying people from outside their culture and in time the "ghettos" will disappear, or turn into tourist attractions. How exclusive or "non-Canadian" is little Italy in your town?

Islamic cultures are the problematic ones. You need only look at Europe to see how well they are fitting in. If anything, they become more insular. Other cultures, yes, they take about two generations at most to start 'fitting in'. Hell even Hindus and Sikhs are starting to mingle a bit

[Jabberwalker]

ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:

Unsound Unsound:

You're right in essence, but I don't think you guys are taking a properly long view. The ethnic enclaves come into being once there is a certain critical mass of immigrants from the same culture. That's why some of the Asian, African, and Middle Eastern communities seem to be so new to us. They've always been here but not so noticeable before. They'll continue growing for a while, and everyone will freak out about it... and then the kids and grandkids will start marrying people from outside their culture and in time the "ghettos" will disappear, or turn into tourist attractions. How exclusive or "non-Canadian" is little Italy in your town?

Islamic cultures are the problematic ones. You need only look at Europe to see how well they are fitting in. If anything, they become more insular. Other cultures, yes, they take about two generations at most to start 'fitting in'. Hell even Hindus and Sikhs are starting to mingle a bit

Neither the Hindus nor the Sikhs seek your demise because you don't worship EXACTLY the way and deity (deities) that they do. They don't go door-to-door pestering, you either. Neither group seems to have any interest in converting you or me by any means. I have yet to see a Hindu suicide bomber blow himself up in a crowded bus. Perhaps they exist but they have left their beef at the border ... the Sikhs less so but it's been a long while since there was trouble from that quarter, here. There is no Sikh "jihad" against any infidels.

[Unsound]

Jabberwalker Jabberwalker:

Very.

I worked in the heart of a really large Italian enclave for a decade and a half and they truly believe that they are better than the rest of us in every measurable way. We are mere "mange cakes". Canada accomplished nothing until the Italians came along and took leadership of the place. You can see Italian flags flying from every second rooftop, on every car, on most sweatshirts but the Maple Leaf? ... nowhere in sight. They really like themselves, don't like "outsider foreigners" (read; everyone else) much and they sure like to blow their horns when an Italian team wins something. If a Canadian team wins something? Nothing.

That sounds nothing like my experiences, but I can believe it to an extent. I could also find various enclaves of other ethnicities that do much the same. But are they "scary" and "threating to our way of life" the way so many think the islamics are? If you look back at newpaper articles from the days of heavy Italian and irish immigration there were great fears that these Catholics would change the face of Canada for the worse. There were scholarly dissertations on whether their loyalty to the pope would undermine their loyalty to Canada. Sound familiar at all?