[Proculation]

N_Fiddledog N_Fiddledog:

No, it was aid on the flotilla. There is some question as to how useful a lot of that stuff on the flotilla was though. But that's not the point. They want an Iranian managed port in Gaza to deliver arms and jihadi-pests to Hamas. That's the point.

I'm sure there was aid. But I'm also pretty sure their were arms too or other things to help the Hamas. A lot of radical muslims were on board chanting "Death to Israel !".

[ShepherdsDog]

Have any of you stopped to notice the West Bank, governed by Fatah, seems to be getting along(relatively speaking) with Israel. Gaza seems to be the source of infection in the area, and Hamas the infecting agent. They don't get along with Egypt, Israel or the West Bank Arabs.

Commander Kai made a valid point. Israel can worry about the PR war or the real one. However, next time they should disable the ships and leave them adrift in international waters...and no more of this paintball crap. Rubber/plastic bullets, bean bag guns, gas and tasers as a first reponse, and then live rounds.

[N_Fiddledog]

Interesting that you should mention gas Shep. I was thinking tear gas too, then I saw the video below. They were ready for gas.

[Wada]

I can't help wondering if the Israeli's had approached this flotilla with peaceful intent, how much different the outcome might have been.

[RUEZ]

Wada Wada:

I can't help wondering if the Israeli's had approached this flotilla with peaceful intent, how much different the outcome might have been.

I can't help wondering if the "protesters" hadn't attacked the soldiers the second they touched down, how much different the outcome might have been.

[Wada]

They'd still have been arrested and because the media attention would have been elsewhere they would probably be in detention still not knowing when they might be released. Seems pretty standard.

[ShepherdsDog]

the dead would still be living because the soldiers, suffering from gunshots, blunt force trauma injuries and stab wounds, wouldn't have had to defend themselves....The aid would still have reached the people who needed it.

[Wada]

and that brings us back to, what if the Israeli's intent had been peaceful. Wanna dance another round?

[RUEZ]

Wada Wada:

and that brings us back to, what if the Israeli's intent had been peaceful. Wanna dance another round?

And that brings us back to, what if the protesters intent had been peaceful.

[Proculation]

Wada Wada:

and that brings us back to, what if the Israeli's intent had been peaceful. Wanna dance another round?

Do you think the IDF should have brought tea and baklavas too before seizing the ships ?

The activists attacked them with guns that were not supposed to be there. The IDF didn't have the choice to attack back.

[ShepherdsDog]

RUEZ RUEZ:

Wada Wada:

I can't help wondering if the Israeli's had approached this flotilla with peaceful intent, how much different the outcome might have been.

I can't help wondering if the "protesters" hadn't attacked the soldiers the second they touched down, how much different the outcome might have been.

why bother with him? He's an orb in a world filled with triangles.

[RUEZ]

ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:

RUEZ RUEZ:

Wada Wada:

I can't help wondering if the Israeli's had approached this flotilla with peaceful intent, how much different the outcome might have been.

I can't help wondering if the "protesters" hadn't attacked the soldiers the second they touched down, how much different the outcome might have been.

why bother with him? He's an orb in a world filled with triangles.

I guess so. I'm amazed that with video's showing both sides of this incident people still put the entire blame on the Israelis.

[commanderkai]

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

To me, blaming the media speaks to an impoverished argument. It's like the losing team blaming the refs. I read the editorials in both the Globe and Mail and the National Post--Canada's two national newspapers. The Globe adn Mail's criticized Israel, though also crticized the activists who attacked the soldiers. The National Post endorsed Israel's actions. Blaming the media also belies the fact that many Israelis themselves are upset.

You don't see the media as a major force in the Palestinian-Israeli conflict? Editorials is another matter entirely. How the news is portrayed in little clippings before the next story is where a large portion of the general population is going to get their news coverage of the event. Maybe it's the fault of our collective attention spans, but a good chunk of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is fueled by clippings, not by in depth analysis.

Also, the fact that some Israelis are upset is a non-issue. Citizens of liberal democracies are going to get upset when their government does something they disagree with. If this is truly making many Israelis upset, there will be another election, much like the election that occurred after the failure of the Gaza pullout by Israel (which, in the end, led to this)

$1:

However, this all happens within the context of the Gaza strip blockade, which has made people uncomfortable for years. That's where a lot of the negative reaction comes from in my opinion.

And this comes from what little clippings they see in newspapers and 24 hour news shows. How many people know the blockade is...or was partially enforced by Egypt? How many people know that Israel sends bucketloads of aid into Gaza when Israel is enforcing a blockade against Gaza?

Or, better yet, something I just picked up on a pro-Israel blog. That Hamas is blocking the delivery of the actual aid from the ship! Here's a link:

http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/meast/06/ ... =allsearch

Of course, scanning the headline, you would assume that it's the Israelis saying that, when only a few paragraphs down "Palestinian sources" confirmed it. So instead of just making it an actual story in its own right (which would show that the ship was political, and not humanitarian in nature).

$1:

Israel has siad that it will act again in the same way. However it's also worth noting that the incident has resulted in Egypt easing its Gaza blockade, and the actions have been widely perceived in Israel as a military blunder and put the government on the defensive. Netanyahu has cancelled his visit to the White House so now Abbas get some Obamam face-time and Netanyahu doesn't. So quite apart from perception and the media, this has harmed Israel's interests, at least in the short term.

There are two sides to it being a disaster. A) That the ship was raided in the first place. B) The ship was raided poorly by commandos with paintball guns into a crowd of anti-Israel Hamas supporters.

Which one, in all honesty, do you believe that it is perceived as a military blunder? Yes, once again, the media and perception comes into play.

[ShepherdsDog]

RUEZ RUEZ:

I guess so. I'm amazed that with video's showing both sides of this incident people still put the entire blame on the Israelis.

Willfull blindness. It keeps their world simple and ensures they never have to question their beliefs.

[Proculation]

The palestinians use the media to make Israel look like a tyrannic nation. The aid flotilla was just that, a stunt for pity against the bad bad Israelis. They elect the Hamas and after that they go cry to the UN because there's a blockade. It's all for the media. It's like going into a black neighborhood with a "Fuck the niggers" t shirt and after you got beaten up, you try to show how bad and violent the blacks are.

What's bad is that it is working. The Palestianians have much more sympathizers then Israel. At least the US and also Canada don't enter that image game.