[Regina]

Christie Blatchford makes some great points which can be applied to many of the Web arguments I've seen take place here.
Flu-shot skeptics weave a Web of lies
Don't believe everything you read online - especially when it tells you the swine-flu vaccine will paralyze you, can 'facilitate mind control at a distance' or just isn't worth taking.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/nat ... le1343060/

[segno]

Brenda Brenda:

$1:

because critical thinkers all tend to think the vaccine is a good idea.

So a critical thinker is only a good thinker when he agrees with you?

Not at all....

You see, it is possible for critical thinkers to have differences of opinions when there is actual scientific data that is in conflict.

But, you see, anti-vaxers and others believers in non-sense are not actually dealing with scientific data. (The term that is used by the skeptical community is 'woo'.) Instead of scientific data, anti-vaxers and other believers in woo tend to rely on:
- Anecdotes (OMG! A friend of a friend got the vaccination then his pet dog came down with herpes! So the vaccination is dangerous!)
- Opinions from experts with, ahem, shady credentials or no credibility (Dr. Kim, of the "Beam sound-waves into your head to cure diseases!" fame and holocaust denialists)
- Facts that are cherry-picked, taken out of context, or just out-and-out wrong (OMG the Czech republic has rejected it! Even though they've recently bought a million doses of the vaccine...)
- Shadowy inferences that don't actually have proof, but just sound good because they like to pretend they're somehow 'up' on the world (OMG! Vaccine makers are giving kickbacks! No actual PROOF of it, but it sounds exciting so it must be true and anyone who doesn't believe me is naive, even though I probably just made it up!)

If there were actual real scientific data that showed that there was a problem with vaccines, I'd listen. So far, non has been shown.

[DrCaleb]

raydan raydan:

The panic has started.
Police had to be called in yesterday when the clinic close to where I live ran out of the vaccine and a lot of people were left outside waiting for their shot.
Emergency rooms are filling up with people that have "flu-like" symptoms and only about 1 tenth of those people actually require medical attention.

What did they expect? They've been beating the H1N1 war drums for months. Then finally they put out the sandwich board:

H1N1 Vaccinations here
------->

And then wonder why people are lined up around the block. And getting irate when they run out of vaccine.

Piss poor planning.

[raydan]

I'm not contesting anything about vaccines Regina.
I also don't think I've posted any links to conspiracy theory sites.
I'm just trying to live my life as natural as I can.
If I get the flu, I get it, I'll live (I hope ) with my decision.

[Proculation]

Planning are do by provinces. There are some problems here (Quebec) but it seems to go smoothly... (according to the news!)

[Regina]

raydan raydan:

I'm not contesting anything about vaccines Regina.
I also don't think I've posted any links to conspiracy theory sites.
I'm just trying to live my life as natural as I can.
If I get the flu, I get it, I'll live (I hope ) with my decision.

It's totally a personal decision but my advice to anyone is that they make that decision based on credible sources and not bogus web sites. One of the biggest differences with this particular strain of fleu is that it can kill young perfectly healthy adults. That is not a normal flue bug.

[segno]

Brenda Brenda:

Proculation Proculation:

Brenda Brenda:

So a critical thinker is only a good thinker when he agrees with you?

"Getting the vaccine = a good idea" is not a opinion, it's a fact. 1+1 = 2, not 3

What does that have to do with "critical thinking"?

How about because the scientific evidence (the type of thing critical thinkers like to rely on) indicates that influenza vaccines: A: Don't cause significant problems with side effects, B: Reduce influenza suffering)

$1:

This is not about the outcome of your thinking, this is about the thought you give it. According to Segno, the result is what makes you a critical thinker.

Nope, its not. In fact, jumping to a conclusion (vaccines are dangerous or ineffective) and then finding evidence to support that belief is what anti-vaxers do. Pro-vaxers first examine the evidence (multiple studies, all showing no serious side effects) and base their conclusion on that.

[Brenda]

That's bullshit. I am not an "anti-vaxer" as you call it. I am just not certain about the flu shot.
FYI, I am VERY pro choice. in ANY case. Does that make me a bad person?

[segno]

Regina Regina:

Christie Blatchford makes some great points which can be applied to many of the Web arguments I've seen take place here.

Flu-shot skeptics weave a Web of lies
Don't believe everything you read online - especially when it tells you the swine-flu vaccine will paralyze you, can 'facilitate mind control at a distance' or just isn't worth taking.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/nat ... le1343060/

Wow, I think I want to bear Cristie's children!

I have to admit, I am very impressed with her article. I am quite used to reading skeptics sites and seeing criticisms of the anti-vaxers. However, the mainstream media is often fairly lax in dealing with people who peddle non-sense. (For example, look at the way Jenny McCarthy gets treated with kid gloves when she goes on Larry King.)

Its nice to see a mainstream journalist take on such nonsense directly.

I've also noticed that, embedded in Blanchford's article is a mention of Dr. Doyle that PublicAnimalNo9 had quoted as a source. The only references I had found suggested she was just some conspiracy nut. This article actually pointed out that she's a vetranarian!

[raydan]

Brenda Brenda:

That's bullshit. I am not an "anti-vaxer" as you call it. I am just not certain about the flu shot.
FYI, I am VERY pro choice. in ANY case. Does that make me a bad person?

No, just a murderous idiot.
Welcome to the club.

[Brenda]

raydan raydan:

Brenda Brenda:

That's bullshit. I am not an "anti-vaxer" as you call it. I am just not certain about the flu shot.
FYI, I am VERY pro choice. in ANY case. Does that make me a bad person?

No, just a murderous idiot.
Welcome to the club.

I feel quite comfy here

[Brenda]

I just got a letter from school (written by the Schooldistrict No. 20) about it. Do you guys want me to type it over for you so you can read what they advice us parents to do?

[Akhenaten]

$1:

Pro-vaxers first examine the evidence (multiple studies, all showing no serious side effects) and base their conclusion on that.

No. That's quite an assumption for a 'critical thinker'.

Most of them have completely forgotten the disaster predictions that never happened with West Nile, SARs, last years flu, the flu for the year before that and the year before that and simply accept that they need to get vaccinated or they have a "1 in 3 chance of dying". They didn't spend a moment 'examining' anything.

[segno]

Brenda Brenda:

That's bullshit. I am not an "anti-vaxer" as you call it. I am just not certain about the flu shot.

Psssss.... the flu shot is a vaccine.

By the way, when did you become "not certain" about the flu shot? In the other thread, it appeared as if you were firmly against it, going so far as to making comments on how its best to let your immune system fight infections naturally, etc.

$1:

FYI, I am VERY pro choice. in ANY case.

At what point did I (or anyone else here) in the pro-vaccination side ever suggest that we have mandatory/forced vaccinations?

I believe it should be a personal decision. Pointing out the risks of not getting vaccinated (including the danger that an unvaccinated person poses to others) is not being anti-choice. It is presenting all information, in the hope that they would make a proper, informed decision.

[Brenda]

segno segno:

Brenda Brenda:

That's bullshit. I am not an "anti-vaxer" as you call it. I am just not certain about the flu shot.

Psssss.... the flu shot is a vaccine.

By the way, when did you become "not certain" about the flu shot? In the other thread, it appeared as if you were firmly against it, going so far as to making comments on how its best to let your immune system fight infections naturally, etc.

$1:

FYI, I am VERY pro choice. in ANY case.

At what point did I (or anyone else here) in the pro-vaccination side ever suggest that we have mandatory/forced vaccinations?

I believe it should be a personal decision. Pointing out the risks of not getting vaccinated (including the danger that an unvaccinated person poses to others) is not being anti-choice. It is presenting all information, in the hope that they would make a proper, informed decision.

If I would be an "anti-vaxer", I would be against EVERY vaccine. I am not. I have had my kids shot against the childhood diseases, I will take Malaria shots when I decide to go to Indonesia and all that.
But, since I am a healthy woman, that is never sick, give me one good reason why I should take the flu shot. The last time anyone in my household had the flu was... NEVER.