[DerbyX]

Thanos Thanos:

More like we reject your legalization theory as a Utopian fantasy/delusion that has no basis in reality and that will lead to an uber-nightmare scenario that makes the current crime situation look pleasant in comparison.

Wrong. Portugal is a prime example. get rid of the criminal penalties and treat like a disease.

Your virulent anti-drug/anti-freedom position is one that has been proven false historically, morally, and statistically.

legalize it.

[PluggyRug]

DerbyX DerbyX:

Portugal is a prime example. get rid of the criminal penalties and treat like a disease.

Your virulent anti-drug/anti-freedom position is one that has been proven false historically, morally, and statistically.

legalize it.

Don't tell that to Capone.

We need pot speak easy's.

[DerbyX]

PluggyRug PluggyRug:

Don't tell that to Capone.

We need pot speak easy's.

Actually speak easy's is sorta what pot users want. They want it "decriminalized" because they don't want big business (like players or dumarier cigs) getting involved. They want it legal for the small guy but not for any organized business.

Small time bars that supply are OK but they don't want it sold like liquor in stores.

Kinda hypocritical I think. I think it should be like over the counter cough medicine. You need it you buy it.

[Thanos]

DerbyX DerbyX:

Thanos Thanos:

More like we reject your legalization theory as a Utopian fantasy/delusion that has no basis in reality and that will lead to an uber-nightmare scenario that makes the current crime situation look pleasant in comparison.

Wrong. Portugal is a prime example. get rid of the criminal penalties and treat like a disease.

Your virulent anti-drug/anti-freedom position is one that has been proven false historically, morally, and statistically.

legalize it.

Legalization and decriminalization won't magically make the effects of addiction disappear. Explain exactly how either would prevent someone from becoming a junkie. And quit hiding behind pot. How exactly does legalizing cocaine, crack, meth, or heroin prevent addiction from happening? You tout the moral imperative, in the absence of any empirical evidence that legalization solves any social problems directly caused by recreational drug usage, therefore you're obligated to explain the exact and specific how's and why's of why your plan is desirable.

Actually, I really don't even care anyway. "Anti-freedom"? Whatever. With comments like that all you do is show that you're some social Randian that doesn't give a damn at all about any of the incredible damage the implementation of your belief system would cause. Away with you, Objectivist swine!

[DerbyX]

Thanos Thanos:

Legalization and decriminalization won't magically make the effects of addiction disappear. Explain exactly how either would prevent someone from becoming a junkie.

Irrelevant. Those exist in the presence of illegality. Making it legal will not increase this and if Portugal is an example (and it is) then use goes down and those seeking treatment increases once the threat of legal action is gone. Eliminate the social stigma and it will only increase.

Thanos Thanos:

And quit hiding behind pot. How exactly does legalizing cocaine, crack, meth, or heroin prevent addiction from happening?

That is because like gun owners who support gun ownership but not sniper rifles and assault rifles it comes in grades. Drug legalization does not mean selling meth in grocery stores.

for that matter who the fuck are you to tell another human being what they can and cannot do. I have decided you may not eat any processed food because I think it is bad for you. Your freedom? Theirs as well.

Thanos Thanos:

You tout the moral imperative, in the absence of any empirical evidence that legalization solves any social problems directly caused by recreational drug usage, therefore you're obligated to explain the exact and specific how's and why's of why your plan is desirable.

http://www.google.ca/search?q=portugal+ ... =firefox-a

Pick a reference and read up on empirical studies.

Thanos Thanos:

Actually, I really don't even care anyway. "Anti-freedom"? Whatever. With comments like that all you do is show that you're some social Randian that doesn't give a damn at all about any of the incredible damage the implementation of your belief system would cause. Away with you, Objectivist swine!

Oh piss off. You'll be measuring beards and testing for hymens next.

Your morality is not mine any more then the morality of the religious folk your harangue about in the US bothers you.

It affects you none. Don't make it your business.

[DerbyX]

Here YA go!:

It has become clear that arresting, prosecuting and jailing heroin and crack addicts doesn’t make them stop using drugs. The illegal drug trade continues to fuel crime and gang violence, and the social and health effects of addiction push the cost to $8.2 billion a year across Canada, according to a 2007 report by the Health Officers Council of B.C.

Until now, debate over the issue has tended toward the extremes: legalize drugs or impose harsher penalties. Both solutions are misguided, and the polarized controversy has obscured the middle ground, where lie the best solutions.

Two Vancouver-based organizations — the B.C. Centre for Excellence in HIV/AIDS and the International Centre for Science and Drug Policy (ICSDP) — have played a key role in drafting a declaration advocating the worldwide decriminalization of drugs.

The “Vienna Declaration” is the manifesto for next month’s 2010 International AIDS Conference in Viennaa. University of B.C. associate professor and ICSDP founder Evan Wood chaired the writing committee.

“There is no evidence that increasing the ferocity of law enforcement meaningfully reduces the prevalence of drug use,” the declaration says.

“Billions of tax dollars [are] wasted on a ‘war on drugs’ approach to drug control that does not achieve its stated objectives.”

Wood often refers to the results Portugal achieved by decriminalizing all drugs — including heroin and cocaine — in 2001. And a 2009 Cato Institute report on Portugal’s experience shows that dealing with drug use as a health and social issue, rather than as a crime, produces surprising results.

Before Portugal decriminalized drugs, opponents of the plan predicted vast increases

in drug abuse and

warned the country would attract hordes of drug tourists.

“None of the nightmare scenarios . . . has occurred,” says the Cato report by Glenn Greenwald. “While drug addiction, usage, and associated pathologies continue to skyrocket in many EU states, those problems — in virtually every relevant category — have been either contained or measurably improved within Portugal since 2001.”

In Portugal, it’s still against the law to possess or use illicit drugs. Drug trafficking is still a criminal offence. What’s changed is the response when people are caught for using or possessing a 10-day supply of drugs or less.

There are no criminal charges, just a citation and a summons to a three-member “dissuasion commission” composed of officials with expertise in the law, health and social services.

Commission members hear the circumstances of the person and their drug offence and determine whether the person is an addict. Fines can be issued or fines can be issued then waived, conditional upon the person entering a treatment program.

Public money saved by decriminalizing drugs has been diverted into drug treatment, the Cato report says.

“Treatment programs — both in terms of funding levels and the willingness of the population to seek them — have improved substantially.”

As well, the number of addicts newly infected with HIV has dropped steadily since 2001.

Here in B.C., the political will to create more addiction-treatment space falls far behind the need and our drug-related costs — financial and human — continue out of control.

Decriminalization would free up millions of dollars for an expanded treatment system and prevention programs. Unfortunately, the legal changes are required at the federal level, where the Stephen Harper government is going in the opposite direction.

[Thanos]

And I'm sure it'll just make things like junkies cracking open the heads of late-night convenience store owners so they can rob the cash register magically go away. And all the teenage crack and heroin whores in East Vancouver somehow and incredibly just won't be there the next night, and it won't be because of the night-time activities of the pig farmer either. And future generations of drug-zombies and yuppified hedonists will curse us for being so benighted as not to have the ultimate human Utopia of freedom-sans-responsibility 24/7/365 as ........ Sodom and Gomorrah did?

Just another liberal paradise of total depravity built on top of a pile of innumerable deaths and shattered lives. Whatever. It never ends with you jackasses, does it?

[DerbyX]

Thanos Thanos:

And I'm sure it'll just make things like junkies cracking open the heads of late-night convenience store owners so they can rob the cash register magically go away.

Care to guess how many are just plain old robberies (likely because Harperites are destroying jobs)? Far less then you think.

Thanos Thanos:

And all the teenage crack and heroin whores in East Vancouver somehow and incredibly just won't be there the next night, and it won't be because of the night-time activities of the pig farmer either.

Yes, because being illegal means they don't do it. The idea is more of them seek treatment because they won't be tossed in jail.

It worked in Portugal.

Thanos Thanos:

And future generations of drug-zombies and yuppified hedonists will curse us for being so benighted as not to have the ultimate human Utopia of freedom-sans-responsibility 24/7/365 as ........ Sodom and Gomorrah did?

RIGHT. Your god killed a bunch of people who enjoyed sex. Please tell us more, like how your enlightened one Lot let his daughters be raped just so a few androgynous fake angels wouldn't get buggered.

Thanos parenting 101.

Thanos Thanos:

Just another liberal paradise of total depravity built on top of a pile of innumerable deaths and shattered lives. Whatever. It never ends with you jackasses, does it?

Sounding just like the republican/tea party guys you love so much.

Michelle Bachman - Thanos 2012 ticket.

[Thanos]

As opposed to the Derb/Larry Flynt 2012 ticket? LOL at you, fratboy. You liberal dicksnots are always the same: keep pushing the failed theories no matter how much damage and death they end up causing.

You: legalize everything, and magic will happen!

Me: really? explain how?

You: questioning me? what are you, some kind of a fascist?

Me: typical lefty reaction. shove it, d-bag.

And da beat goes on......

[DerbyX]

Thanos Thanos:

As opposed to the Derb/Larry Flynt 2012 ticket? LOL at you, fratboy. You liberal dicksnots are always the same: keep pushing the failed theories no matter how much damage and death they end up causing.

Failed? How so bright boy? Legalization has never been a policy. It has all been your taliban morality of anti-drug.

In fact it is the continuing failure of your ideology that has even ardent drug opposes looking for solutions.

We have those solutions slick.

Thanos Thanos:

You: legalize everything, and magic will happen!

Me: really? explain how?

Nope. Just that legalization minimizes the problems.

Evidence: Portugal studies.

Suck it.

Thanos Thanos:

You: questioning me? what are you, some kind of a fascist?

Yes you are. You are some kind of fascist. You are a drug fascist.

Thanos Thanos:

Me: typical lefty reaction. shove it, d-bag.

you & the Taliban: No drugs, no alcohol, no clean shaven faces and you must have a hymen when you get married.

Brilliant!

Thanos Thanos:

And da beat goes on......

Correct.

I'll be right and you will be the republican/tea bagger Canadian equivalent who is wrong entirely.

[Thanos]

Considering your beliefs on this issue and other similiar ones, like dropping the age of consent down to five years old or the total right to shove gerbils up your ass-pipe or whatever the hell it is you want, I'll take your insults as confirmation that I'm totally in the right. You don't know what the hell you're talking about and you never will. If Portugal's so awesome please move there ASAP and spare the rest of us any further exposure to your wonderful ideas and to your awesome presence as well.

[DerbyX]

Thanos Thanos:

Considering your beliefs on this issue and other similiar ones, like dropping the age of consent down to five years old or the total right to shove gerbils up your ass-pipe or whatever the hell it is you want, I'll take your insults as confirmation that I'm totally in the right.

Sure you are sunshine. Just like you think every single girl in Canada should be subjected to hymen tests from the age of 11 until they are married off to a respectable elder.

I think they should be on crack and you think they should be married off as virgins to 50 year old men.

Thanos Thanos:

You don't know what the hell you're talking about and you never will. If Portugal's so awesome please move there ASAP and spare the rest of us any further exposure to your wonderful ideas and to your awesome presence as well.

You are so clueless. If you think our laws are so lax feel free to move to Iran where they execute drug dealers.

Get a brain.

[PublicAnimalNo9]

Thanos Thanos:

As opposed to the Derb/Larry Flynt 2012 ticket? LOL at you, fratboy. You liberal dicksnots are always the same: keep pushing the failed theories no matter how much damage and death they end up causing.

You: legalize everything, and magic will happen!

Me: really? explain how?

You: questioning me? what are you, some kind of a fascist?

Me: typical lefty reaction. shove it, d-bag.

And da beat goes on......

Oh c'mon Thanos, you can't be that fucking thick. Portugal is a prime example of empirical evidence when it's done right. The money the gov't ISN'T spending on policing, courts, and incarcerations are allowing them to fund rehab centres and clinics.
And guess what, they are actully saving money over the draconian method of dealing with drugs. When Portugal decrimmed everything, pot use increased a wee bit in adults, and actually dropped a bit in teens. But here's the amazing thing, alcohol use amoung both groups decreased and hard drug use decreased substantially since 2001. And with the decrease, the population is that much healthier for it, causing less stress on their medical system.
And if someone is growing 5-6 plants on their property, the cops don't even bother with it.
But when a big bust is made here, all that happens is some turf war starts up, big or small, to fill the void, driving up the price of the "product", making the gangs even wealthier and the tax coffers shorter.

I don't have estimates for Canada yet, but the "official" low-ball estimate for pot sales alone in the US tunes in around $10 BILLION/yr. The "official" low-ball estimate in cost to the justice system from policing to courts to prisons just to deal with pot is estimated to be around $3-4 Billion per year.

What I see a lot of when it comes to the anti-legalization side is the fucked-up notion that legalization will lead to a whole-sale increase in usage, like the mere fact the stuff is illegal is preventing 99% of the non-users from using them.
Well I, amoung MANY other pot smokers, wouldn't bother with the other crap even if it was legalized. There's a damn good reason most people don't do that shit and it really has little to do with "the law".
I can honestly also say that most of the junkies I've ended up knowing didn't want to be junkies. They were so because they either didn't know where to go for help because there wasnt' any nearby, couldn't afford to get the help or were seriously paranoid and were afraid of getting arrested if they went to a clinic to get help.

Seems to me if Portugal is any example, it's an easy way to solve any one of those excuses/reasons.

[Thanos]

^

See, now that's compelling arguement. Nothing like Dreb's smug condescending typical liberalese "if you disagree with me on anything it means that you're a Christianist Taliban fascist" bullshit that he spreads around here with every single post he makes.

+5 coming your way just for being normal.

BTW, I'm not saying I agree with everything you said. In my view, if I have to look at the state executing prisoners as existentially making me complicit in a murder, then I have to look at the state profitting through taxes on legalized drug sales or legalized prostitution as also making me complicit in drug dealing and sex slavery. And this sort of thing makes me uncomfortable. It's not a reactionary position against someone "having fun", as Dreb so juvenilily referred to it, it's a moral difficulty with being forced to become a profit-receiver in activities that are empirically known to cause death, destruction, and near-wholesale misery among those who choose to participate. I'm not some kind of amoral Randian dirtbag who easily turns away from things like this. I could live with some form of cross-spectrum decriminalization, preferrably accompanied by some sort of mandatory rehab for the users because throwing these people in prison is a waste of time and resources, but the law enforcement efforts against the traffickers and smugglers has to continue. We can't say that we want our people to lead healthy lives and then deliberately turn away from activities that lead to the exact opposite. It's sickening enough that we've done this with tobacco just so we could score cash off of the taxes placed on it. Adding more things that are even worse in terms of causing physical damage to people simply isn't the right thing to do. Not in my view it isn't.

BTW, anyone got any statistics on lung cancer or emphysema rates among pot smokers? Inhalation of any kind of smoke is not good for people's health at all, just in case no one's noticed yet. If it were good for us then they wouldn't evacuate us away when forest fires break out or apartment buildings burn down.

[DerbyX]

I've given you that argument before Thanos ..... many MANY times and you have always countered with your ridiculous point that society will degrade into a liberal nightmare of sex and drugs in the streets & schools of Sodom & Gomorrah levels.

Hence I started calling you a hymen testing taliban. You act like it whenever drugs are the topic.

I'm the ORIGINAL poster of the Portugal study (check the news links) and posted most of what PA#9 said although it was during a debate with Ridenrain.

You want to keep posted moronic arguments that legalizing drugs will mean a moral decay of epic proportions you'll be treated like the people who claim that will happen if we allow gays to marry and claim taking prayer out of schools has led to the decline of society.