[raydan]

Let's just say Andyt that we went from (what we all said here) a very uninteresting election with no real chance of changing anything... except for some that were hoping for a Harper majority... to one that we're all having problems making predictions on, not only on the outcome, but also what will happen after.

Turning out to be a fun election after all, well except for those Conservative die-hards.

[OnTheIce]

andyt andyt:

raydan raydan:

Big surprise.

Like Pen said, now we can have another election in 2012, then in 2013 and so on ad nauseam.

Nope. We'll have another election when Stevo doesn't play ball, then a stable NDP led minority govt that the Libs won't want to bring down too soon as the try to figure out what happened and how to rebuild. Same with the Reformacons, bereft of their leader.

Why is it only a 1 way street?

Why do the opposition parties not have to co-operate and the leading party in a minority has to?

The Liberals and NDP dedided to vote against the budget before they even read it this time around.

Basically, it's like this: Stephen, do what we want or we'll take over your government or go to an election.

Co-operation has to be a two way street!

[dino_bobba_renno]

andyt andyt:

Nope. We'll have another election when Stevo doesn't play ball, then a stable NDP led minority govt that the Libs won't want to bring down too soon as the try to figure out what happened and how to rebuild. Same with the Reformacons, bereft of their leader.

They'll have to survive the throne speech and the pass the budget to even get that far and I don't think that's going to happen.

[raydan]

You're right, OTI, everybody has to cooperate. We only see part of what's going on though, the public part. God knows what's happening behind the scenes... what the Libs and the NPD wanted from Harper in exchange for passing the budget.. or maybe all they wanted was an election.
Well now they have it, Iggy will probably ride off into the sunset and Jack will be pretty happy about the outcome. What will happen now? I don't know and the parties are not giving out many clues.

[DerbyX]

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

Why is it only a 1 way street?

Why do the opposition parties not have to co-operate and the leading party in a minority has to?

The Liberals and NDP dedided to vote against the budget before they even read it this time around.

Basically, it's like this: Stephen, do what we want or we'll take over your government or go to an election.

Co-operation has to be a two way street!

Harper all but refused to cooperate. He spent most of the time Dion was the leader of the Libs baiting him to call an election what with making everything possible a non-confidence motion.

A minority government works like this. The PM puts forth a budget. He needs the support of any number of opposition MPs. He then decides which party he wants to get it from so he decides what budget compromises to put in, in order to get their support. He gets to pick and choose but he needs to put something into the budget that they want. It is Harper's failure to not get the support he wants because its his decision who he wants to work with and what he is willing to give up as opposed to what any opposition party is willing to accept.

So far Harper has shown he will not under any circumstance work with the Liberals. He has poisoned any possibility of working with the Bloc what with him calling any attempt to do so seditious (despite him doing just that before) and the NDP has been steadfast in their demands about what they expect from Harper should he want their support.

If Harper wants to lay the blame on the opposition parties then he is not only able but encouraged to let another party take responsibility.

The Liberals and the NDP will have little problem reaching a fair compromise.

[andyt]

Maybe the Layton groundswell will reach tsunami proportions and the Dippers will have the most seats, and Jack just naturally becomes PM. Wonder how co-operative Stevo will be then?

[Dayseed]

The Conservatives hate minorities in any form.

[OnTheIce]

DerbyX DerbyX:

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

Why is it only a 1 way street?

Why do the opposition parties not have to co-operate and the leading party in a minority has to?

The Liberals and NDP dedided to vote against the budget before they even read it this time around.

Basically, it's like this: Stephen, do what we want or we'll take over your government or go to an election.

Co-operation has to be a two way street!

Harper all but refused to cooperate. He spent most of the time Dion was the leader of the Libs baiting him to call an election what with making everything possible a non-confidence motion.

A minority government works like this. The PM puts forth a budget. He needs the support of any number of opposition MPs. He then decides which party he wants to get it from so he decides what budget compromises to put in, in order to get their support. He gets to pick and choose but he needs to put something into the budget that they want. It is Harper's failure to not get the support he wants because its his decision who he wants to work with and what he is willing to give up as opposed to what any opposition party is willing to accept.

So far Harper has shown he will not under any circumstance work with the Liberals. He has poisoned any possibility of working with the Bloc what with him calling any attempt to do so seditious (despite him doing just that before) and the NDP has been steadfast in their demands about what they expect from Harper should he want their support.

If Harper wants to lay the blame on the opposition parties then he is not only able but encouraged to let another party take responsibility.

The Liberals and the NDP will have little problem reaching a fair compromise.

Derby, that's completetly and utterly false.

The Harper Conservatives have, on numerous occasions, worked with ALL of the parties to get things done. To say otherwise is just lying.

As for the NDP staying "steadfast", that's bullshit. You can't demand one side compromise while you stay "steadfast". It doesn't work that way.

Further, your process is completely wrong. The Government doesn't just come up with a budget and then hope that a party will work with them. This past budget, Harper sat down with all the parties regarding the budget BEFORE the budget was complete. Not after.

Harper passed numerous budgets with supports from all parties. To suggest that they didn't co-operate is simply not true.

AS for Harper baiting Dion, that was also a two-way street. The Liberals were baiting the Conservatives consistantly in the media on whether or not they would take him down. Everytime Harper called their bluff, they buckled and ran away with their tails between their legs.

[DerbyX]

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

Derby, that's completetly and utterly false.

The Harper Conservatives have, on numerous occasions, worked with ALL of the parties to get things done. To say otherwise is just lying.

They have done nothing of the sort. In fact they spent most of Dions time laughing at the way they could push them around. It is patently false to say the CPC under Harper made even a reasonable honest attempt to compromise.

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

As for the NDP staying "steadfast", that's bullshit. You can't demand one side compromise while you stay "steadfast". It doesn't work that way.

Yes it does. In fact it shows character in the NDP that they won't compromise principles.

Again: Harper needs the support of at least 1 party (or portion thereof). Each of those parties has specific requirements that Harper must meet to get their support. It is incumbent upon him to decide what he is willing to compromise on.

Martin was faced with the same choice back when he was leading a minority government and we got a budget heavily influenced by the NDP because he choose to work with them.

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

Further, your process is completely wrong. The Government doesn't just come up with a budget and then hope that a party will work with them. This past budget, Harper sat down with all the parties regarding the budget BEFORE the budget was complete. Not after.

My process is ENTIRELY how it works. The government puts forward a budget. If they have a majority then they need no support. If they don't then they need support. Another party might endorse it as is (or abstain allowing it to pass) but if that does not happen then Harper must negotiate for support. Other parties may and do say "we'll support your budget if ..." but Harper can pick and choose out of the proposals of 3 parties.

hence the responsibility is his. He most certainly did not sit down with the other parties for his last budget. It never got that far at all.

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

Harper passed numerous budgets with supports from all parties. To suggest that they didn't co-operate is simply not true.

Passing a budget because the Liberals abstained and there were not enough votes to defeat it doesn't count.

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

AS for Harper baiting Dion, that was also a two-way street. The Liberals were baiting the Conservatives consistantly in the media on whether or not they would take him down. Everytime Harper called their bluff, they buckled and ran away with their tails between their legs.

What a load of crap. Harper has been running anti-Liberal attack ads for the last 5 years. He spent Dion's entire tenure daring him to defeat any single motion he put forth because he made them all no-confidence.

It is a very large reason why there is a multitude of ABH & ABC movements. The Libs may be struggling but the simple fact is that after 5 years and 4 elections Canadians do not trust Harper with a majority and they will not give him one.

[Curtman]

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

Why do the opposition parties not have to co-operate and the leading party in a minority has to?

The Liberals and NDP dedided to vote against the budget before they even read it this time around.

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

The Harper Conservatives have, on numerous occasions, worked with ALL of the parties to get things done. To say otherwise is just lying.

The opposition MPs, all of them (forming a majority) opposed corporate tax cuts. "My way or the highway" was Harper's position. So here we are. That is not a lie.

[Public_Domain]

[OnTheIce]

DerbyX DerbyX:

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

Derby, that's completetly and utterly false.

The Harper Conservatives have, on numerous occasions, worked with ALL of the parties to get things done. To say otherwise is just lying.

They have done nothing of the sort. In fact they spent most of Dions time laughing at the way they could push them around. It is patently false to say the CPC under Harper made even a reasonable honest attempt to compromise.

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

As for the NDP staying "steadfast", that's bullshit. You can't demand one side compromise while you stay "steadfast". It doesn't work that way.

Yes it does. In fact it shows character in the NDP that they won't compromise principles.

Again: Harper needs the support of at least 1 party (or portion thereof). Each of those parties has specific requirements that Harper must meet to get their support. It is incumbent upon him to decide what he is willing to compromise on.

Martin was faced with the same choice back when he was leading a minority government and we got a budget heavily influenced by the NDP because he choose to work with them.

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

Further, your process is completely wrong. The Government doesn't just come up with a budget and then hope that a party will work with them. This past budget, Harper sat down with all the parties regarding the budget BEFORE the budget was complete. Not after.

My process is ENTIRELY how it works. The government puts forward a budget. If they have a majority then they need no support. If they don't then they need support. Another party might endorse it as is (or abstain allowing it to pass) but if that does not happen then Harper must negotiate for support. Other parties may and do say "we'll support your budget if ..." but Harper can pick and choose out of the proposals of 3 parties.

hence the responsibility is his. He most certainly did not sit down with the other parties for his last budget. It never got that far at all.

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

Harper passed numerous budgets with supports from all parties. To suggest that they didn't co-operate is simply not true.

Passing a budget because the Liberals abstained and there were not enough votes to defeat it doesn't count.

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

AS for Harper baiting Dion, that was also a two-way street. The Liberals were baiting the Conservatives consistantly in the media on whether or not they would take him down. Everytime Harper called their bluff, they buckled and ran away with their tails between their legs.

What a load of crap. Harper has been running anti-Liberal attack ads for the last 5 years. He spent Dion's entire tenure daring him to defeat any single motion he put forth because he made them all no-confidence.

It is a very large reason why there is a multitude of ABH & ABC movements. The Libs may be struggling but the simple fact is that after 5 years and 4 elections Canadians do not trust Harper with a majority and they will not give him one.

I'm not sure why I bother to reply to you.

Regardless of the facts, you refuse to acknowledge anything that would remotely be positive for the Conservatives or negative for the Liberals.

Discussing anything with you is simply a 1 way street.

Enjoy 3rd party status.

[DerbyX]

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

I'm not sure why I bother to reply to you.

Regardless of the facts, you refuse to acknowledge anything that would remotely be positive for the Conservatives or negative for the Liberals.

Discussing anything with you is simply a 1 way street.

Enjoy 3rd party status.

Now who throws a fit when people won't agree with him.

What I described about a minority government is true regardless of who is in power. It was true when Martin was in power. I would have preferred him to continue slashing the debt but he had to get support from someone and that someone was Layton which is why we went from 20+ billion debt repayment to 3-4 for those years.

He needed the support of the NDP and had to pay the price to get it. If he had not have done that and his government fallen then it would have been his responsibility.

Your inability to assign even a tiny shred of responsibility to the CPC mirrors Harper's spending his entire time as PM blaming everybody else for everything. Nothing was ever his responsibility.

[OnTheIce]

DerbyX DerbyX:

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

I'm not sure why I bother to reply to you.

Regardless of the facts, you refuse to acknowledge anything that would remotely be positive for the Conservatives or negative for the Liberals.

Discussing anything with you is simply a 1 way street.

Enjoy 3rd party status.

Now who throws a fit when people won't agree with him.

What I described about a minority government is true regardless of who is in power. It was true when Martin was in power. I would have preferred him to continue slashing the debt but he had to get support from someone and that someone was Layton which is why we went from 20+ billion debt repayment to 3-4 for those years.

He needed the support of the NDP and had to pay the price to get it. If he had not have done that and his government fallen then it would have been his responsibility.

Your inability to assign even a tiny shred of responsibility to the CPC mirrors Harper's spending his entire time as PM blaming everybody else for everything. Nothing was ever his responsibility.

Gotta love you Derbs, when people don't agree with you they're "throwing a fit" or "angry". I just don't want to converse with you as it's a waste of time.

Sigh.

There's just no debate. No conversation. No admission of negativity, even if it's staring you in the face. Liberals are always right.

I may be partisan, but I'm able to admit when the people I support make mistakes.

You cannot.

That's why conversing with you is like having an elective root canal.

I'll pass.

[OnTheIce]

dino_bobba_renno dino_bobba_renno:

andyt andyt:

Nope. We'll have another election when Stevo doesn't play ball, then a stable NDP led minority govt that the Libs won't want to bring down too soon as the try to figure out what happened and how to rebuild. Same with the Reformacons, bereft of their leader.

They'll have to survive the throne speech and the pass the budget to even get that far and I don't think that's going to happen.

The Liberals will support the budget if they're the 3rd party. They need time to re-build.