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PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2010 9:27 am
 


PostFactum PostFactum:
to kill civilians is the highest level of being dumb.

I totally disagree. Maybe if we started killing some innocent civilians in these countries, they'd start making it their business to prevent terrorism at its source. Let's put the onus back on the governments producing terrorists to police it.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2010 9:34 am
 


On the 1st day of Christmas the U.S. Air Force gave to me, 1 JDAM and a thousand rounds from a GAU-8.

The A-10 can have a Santa hat painted on the nose.


Just a suggestion


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2010 9:37 am
 


Lemmy Lemmy:
PostFactum PostFactum:
to kill civilians is the highest level of being dumb.

I totally disagree. Maybe if we started killing some innocent civilians in these countries, they'd start making it their business to prevent terrorism at its source. Let's put the onus back on the governments producing terrorists to police it.

The genius's of Al Qaida who surfaced in Iraq thought if they killed Iraqi's then the "Invaders" would get the blame.

Instead, the Iraqi militias turned their fight away from the Americans against AQ or chose to fight both at the same time.

So in short, its a bad idea, especially in this age of quick information on a world wide scale. Sure Henry Havelock could march through India in 1857 stringing up anyone who looked like a mutineer (which worked) but we do not live in that world anymore.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2010 9:49 am
 


$1:
Major General Dhiya Hussein, the interior ministry’s counter-terrorism chief, said a captured militant from the Iraqi wing of al-Qaida revealed the plot UNDER TORTURE.


Yeah, I'm sure the most reliable information going I'm thinking.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2010 10:01 am
 


Lemmy Lemmy:
PostFactum PostFactum:
to kill civilians is the highest level of being dumb.

I totally disagree. Maybe if we started killing some innocent civilians in these countries, they'd start making it their business to prevent terrorism at its source. Let's put the onus back on the governments producing terrorists to police it.


And you call yourself an educated man. Wow. So which countries to you want to bomb now? Killing innocent civilians certainly doesn't seem to be working out too well for Israel. Nor did the West's invasion of Astan and Iraq.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2010 10:38 am
 


Lemmy Lemmy:
I totally disagree. Maybe if we started killing some innocent civilians in these countries, they'd start making it their business to prevent terrorism at its source. Let's put the onus back on the governments producing terrorists to police it.


A lot of these governments don't give a rat's ass about their civilians. Killing innocent civilians will not affect the ability of terrorists to cause mischief, will provide great fodder for the terrorist recruiters, and will cause problems when footage of ventilated children appears on youtube.

Terrorism is not an existential threat. It's a nuisance. A nasty one, but only a nuisance. It can't be stopped aboslutely by any measure, including your "just git 'er done" approach, unfortunately, and is best dealt with through a plethora of responses.

I think we've been managing quite well. I'm sure CSIS is working on spying on and infiltrating Islamist organizations in Canada. The new body scans at the airport are pretty fast.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2010 10:44 am
 


Lemmy Lemmy:
PostFactum PostFactum:
to kill civilians is the highest level of being dumb.

I totally disagree. Maybe if we started killing some innocent civilians in these countries, they'd start making it their business to prevent terrorism


The same they do after that with your family :wink:


Last edited by PostFactum on Fri Dec 17, 2010 10:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2010 10:46 am
 


andyt andyt:
Lemmy Lemmy:
PostFactum PostFactum:
to kill civilians is the highest level of being dumb.

I totally disagree. Maybe if we started killing some innocent civilians in these countries, they'd start making it their business to prevent terrorism at its source. Let's put the onus back on the governments producing terrorists to police it.


And you call yourself an educated man. Wow. So which countries to you want to bomb now? Killing innocent civilians certainly doesn't seem to be working out too well for Israel. Nor did the West's invasion of Astan and Iraq.


It's all a matter of scale, and attitude. Dresden in WW2, for example, was a rousing success. So was firebombing Tokyo.

These would be unacceptable nowadays, as there is no need for that kind of retaliation. But there easily could be. Right after 9/11, I think such an attack as a MOAB on Bin Laden's whole village could have been well received.

Attacking military bases, that's OK. Attacking schools and malls at Christmas - not so much. If terrorists don't wish to adhere to the articles of civilized war, then the gloves can come off, IMHO.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2010 10:54 am
 


Innocent people always get killed in wars. Dropping that MOAB, as you say, makes sense. But what Lemmy is proposing doesn't. It certainly won't bring peace. And I thought we'd already been killing innocent people in Astan and Iraq - what's that got us. In Iraq, it just created conditions perfect for terrorism where there hadn't been any before. And in Astan we made a total mess of it. Let Bin Laden get away, but are propping up drug dealing warlords.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2010 10:56 am
 


Arabs are not the simple folks, they live in cruel lands and because of that they have a strong mind, body and congregation, the more you teas them - more angry will be their vendetta. Soviet Union was feeling this more that every country, now the US are making the same mistake and put other countries in that conflict. In my city every 10-th family lost their relative in Afganistan, my mother remembers the time when young boys were comming home without hands and bodies, muslims were catching them, put the cross in the mouth and cutting the neck. The more we give them hell, more cruel they become. We need to be honest and generous to that folks that's the way to destroy that radical groups. My father was in army with man from middle east, that man was ready to die and give his last dish to someone who was his friend. Be the friend of them and they'll never be part of terorism.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2010 10:59 am
 


Lemmy Lemmy:
GreenTiger GreenTiger:
I've got to agree here. We don't like some of the intrusive security measures, but it is better to accept them rather than have a successful underwear or shoe bomber kill a number of people. The terrorists only have to win one in a while, we have to prevent this 100% of the time.

And that's why I say "enough is enough". I'm pretty much a pacifist, but I've had enough of this crap. I say we scrap all this intrusive security protocol. We tell the world "If we find a guy trying to board a plane with C4 in his underwear, then a crowded mosque in the West Bank eats a cruise missile. If a plane blows up over the Atlantic, then a bomb goes off in a crowded Saudi shopping mall. If a package of explosives is found on a cargo plane in Yemen, then a quiet Yemeni neighbourhood gets demolished." No more counter terrorism. You kill one of us, we kill 10,000 of you. Merry Christmas, fuckers.


I'm with you Lemmy!

I'm sick of getting hassled at YYZ by $10 per hour Pakistanis etc who are the supposed last line of our defence in airports.

Merry Christmas!


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2010 11:00 am
 


well this year for christmas, i'm giving al qaida a big ol' 'fuck you'.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2010 11:01 am
 


If you're coming home without your body, can you really be said to be coming home?

I like what you say. But, we are friends with Saudi Arabia - the princes that run the place anyway. And yet they give money to the terrorists, while the common people hate us for propping up a repressive regime. I'm also not sure how friendly we can be with Iran - the Ayatollahs keep in power by demonizing the west. They're never going to want to be friends. But it's true in Iran if we reached out to the people themselves, that would bear fruit. Iranians still remember when they lived a much freer life, and would like nothing better than to join the west in having blue jeans and i-pods.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2010 11:23 am
 


andyt andyt:
Innocent people always get killed in wars. Dropping that MOAB, as you say, makes sense. But what Lemmy is proposing doesn't. It certainly won't bring peace.


As has been brought up here before, Afghanis don't want peace - or are not willing to work toward it. We don't target civilians, but every reasonable person knows accidents happen. But remember a few years back, a CF soldier tried to meet with a village elders in A'stan and was met by an axe in the head? The village knew it would happen, the village elder would have given his consent for it to happen, so from then on that village was passed by when it came to food and aid as an example to others. I hope they still are.

What Lemmy is proposing is similar. Someone from the village kills our innocent civvies, we do the same, but with a bigger bang. I throw in the caveat, that if they go for military targets - no such reprisal will happen. There will be consequences, but not to their innocent civilians. It sucks, but with a moral system that internally focused, I don't know of any other way to get them to see how internal problems become problems for others far away.

They might need a 'bloody nose' to focus their attention, like ours would be focused, is all I'm saying.

andyt andyt:
And I thought we'd already been killing innocent people in Astan and Iraq - what's that got us. In Iraq, it just created conditions perfect for terrorism where there hadn't been any before. And in Astan we made a total mess of it. Let Bin Laden get away, but are propping up drug dealing warlords.


In Iraq, it was the firing of the entire Iraqi army that was the catalyst there. I still can't believe they did that. And yes, mistakes have been made in A'Stan. Still are. But our society and theirs don't mesh completely. Applying our morals to their ways doesn't work. So we sometimes must use their own moral system to make out point. If they know of an internal plot to kill our innocents, they may have to have to know the consequence will be the deaths of them and their innocents.

Right now, I get the sense they couldn't care what happens down the street from them, let alone what happens to school children somewhere across the planet. We've tried for 10 years to get them to care, but the ones who do join up to the police end up being the targets of internal terrorism. Someone, somewhere knew about such plots, and didn't care enough to tell anyone - or there was no one uncorrupted enough to tell. I am of the opinion that their internal stuff is their business. But if their internal stuff kills our innocents - like on 9/11 - then that changes things. That was why Canada sent troops to Afghanistan in the first place. If innocents die as a result of something they were able to prevent, but didn't - then eventually with enough retaliation on our part they may care enough about their own internal security so that there are no international repercussions for their own internal problems.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2010 11:29 am
 


Everyone, save andy-andy, surely got that my post was, in large measure, tongue-in-cheek. But there comes a point when the piper needs paid.


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