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PostPosted: Sat Mar 06, 2010 8:07 pm
 


she was learning how to speak French...just on her own terms, not those the gov't offered to all the other immigrants. That is the problem.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 12:38 am
 


whiskeyjack whiskeyjack:
$1:
"I'm just like any other person," Ms. Ahmed said in an interview with The Globe and Mail yesterday, speaking in her native Arabic tongue. "The only difference is that I wear a veil over my face. It doesn't mean I'm wearing a veil over my mind."


we speak french or english or even ojibwae in canada, learn about the country you immigrate to or get the fuck out


Umm...I think the issue is that she is trying to learn and they wont let her...did you read the article, or this is a drive-by insult?


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 2:34 am
 


$1:
she is trying to learn and they wont let her

No, she wanted to dictate the way the class was set up. If she wants that, then she should hire a private tutor, rather than make the system conform to her terms. Did you read the article?

Watching the way a person moves their mouth while speaking often reveals why they are making mistakes in their pronunciation. This technique is commonly used when teaching a language and getting the student(s) to enunciate their words.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 6:20 am
 


Funny, my mother teaches ESL and nobody in her school has a niqab ban.

Also, the course is provided online and this student took other courses before this one without problem.

I think this is a personal issue for the instructor.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 7:48 am
 


BeaverFever BeaverFever:
Funny, my mother teaches ESL and nobody in her school has a niqab ban.

Also, the course is provided online and this student took other courses before this one without problem.

I think this is a personal issue for the instructor.


It is possible that there is some personal stuff going on here. That being said, wearing the Niqab is a cultural requirement, not a religious one. The same school would likely ask a woman wearing a string bikini to change, and they have that perogative to enforce a dress code. It certainly sounds like they made efforts to accomodate this woman, but they should have the right to say, "enough".


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 8:13 am
 


Right, because the string bikini would be offensive to others. But is the Niqab?

I would argue that the offer to accomodate by forcing her or other students to stand up and face the wall was a deliberate non-offer. Its like when you say non-Christians can stand out in the rain when the school says the lords prayer. Or de-segregated schools 'accomodating' black students if they sit on the floor...or even worse, making the majority white students sit on the floor. Its a measure meant to humiliate and exaggerate differences while pretending to accommodate.

A real, reasonable offer to accomodate would be to just procede with the class. And IF a French teacher really needs to correct elocution by looking at a student's face in order for the lesson to be learned (which I think is BS) then let the student shell out of her own pocket for a private tutor to help her with that after hours.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 8:45 am
 


Why would a string bikini be offensive but a niqab wouldnt?

In regards to your last sentence, that is the whole issue. She can pay for her private tutor all she wants and have it her way. But she doesnt, because it is her RIGHT to get it for free. Her way, she thinks.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 9:01 am
 


BeaverFever wrote:

$1:
Right, because the string bikini would be offensive to others. But is the Niqab?


Yes, a lot of people are offended by it.

$1:
I would argue that the offer to accomodate by forcing her or other students to stand up and face the wall was a deliberate non-offer. Its like when you say non-Christians can stand out in the rain when the school says the lords prayer. Or de-segregated schools 'accomodating' black students if they sit on the floor...or even worse, making the majority white students sit on the floor. Its a measure meant to humiliate and exaggerate differences while pretending to accommodate.


Funny, the woman didn't seem to see it that way. It sounded like she was comfortable with it.

$1:
A real, reasonable offer to accomodate would be to just procede with the class. And IF a French teacher really needs to correct elocution by looking at a student's face in order for the lesson to be learned (which I think is BS) then let the student shell out of her own pocket for a private tutor to help her with that after hours.



Although we agree, I would submit that that response would have had hard lefty editorialists and interest groups salivating at the propect of the bile they could unleash.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 10:04 pm
 


Brenda Brenda:
Why would a string bikini be offensive but a niqab wouldnt?



Bikini vs. Niqab:

Because some guys get all tingly in their pants when they see a half-naked girl and they were raised to feel embarrassed by it. Because some girls feel subconscious and insecure infront of a female figure that might be nicer than theirs. Because some guys are so hard up for female attention they can't focos on anything else. A bikini can be "sexually suggestive" but a Niqab obviously is not. Personally, I would love it if girls in my work came in wearing string bikinis but alas......

$1:
Yes, a lot of people are offended by it.


But how does somebody get offended because somebody else in the class is wearing a niqab? I get that you think its wierd looking but how does that offend you? How is that different than some old person being offended by a wierd hairdo or nose ring or an interracial couple? Isnt the right-wing always saying there is "no right to not be offended" whenever some minority claims they're offended by this or that? To me, this is no different than saying your offended by a Jewish guy wearing a yamaka...and yes, that claim was made about 50 or 60 years ago too.

My point is: the student's niqab does not interfere with other students ability to learn or the teacher's ability to teach. The only plausible excuse is that it somehow interferes with the Egyptian's ability to learn. But so what, are we her baby sitters now? If she is the only one who is going to suffer from it, who else should care? Let her get a "Needs Improvement" score on the elocution section of the grade or let her work a little harder or maybe even hire a private tutor on the weekends to supplement her weekly lessons if she wants to stay caught up to the rest of her class. Its a minor issue and not worthy of all the fuss.

The point is, she is not asking for any special advantage against her other students (not that adult education is competitive, but I digress) or making anybody in the class to do anything different than they would normally do without her there, so its a hard case to make that she is interfering or getting special treatment. Again, note that it was the teacher who wanted students to face walls, etc. not the student.

Maybe I should break this down a little differently:

When we talk about acommodation, it's not about what you 'feel' like accomodating, or whether you can justify your discrimination on some ground. The issue has to be approached from the question of: does the circumstance make it impossible (or unreasonably difficult)to accomodate? Thats why Sikhs won the right to wear Turbans at most places of work, but not on construction sites or on motorcycles or other places where a helmet or mandatory headgear would make accomodation impossible. So in this case one would have to prove that the Niqab makes it impossible for the wearer to learn French or unreasonably difficult to teach French. That's a stretch in this case. If she was wanting to get a Drivers License and didnt want to sit for the photo, I'd be on your side because a Niqab makes it impossible to photograph your face. But it doesnt make it impossible to learn French.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 10:32 pm
 


BeaverFever BeaverFever:
Brenda Brenda:
Why would a string bikini be offensive but a niqab wouldnt?



Bikini vs. Niqab:

Because some guys get all tingly in their pants when they see a half-naked girl and they were raised to feel embarrassed by it. Because some girls feel subconscious and insecure infront of a female figure that might be nicer than theirs. Because some guys are so hard up for female attention they can't focos on anything else. A bikini can be "sexually suggestive" but a Niqab obviously is not. Personally, I would love it if girls in my work came in wearing string bikinis but alas......


So the muslims are right by letting their women wear a niqab or a burqa...


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 10:49 pm
 


Well, they obviously go way overboard. Go into any office and they wont let you wear a bikini, but ask if that means you have to wear a burqa and they'll probably tell you to take it back a few notches.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 11:26 pm
 


How about we declare our country as completely secular? Public expressions of religion are prohibited. ALL religions.

Problem solved! :wink:


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 12:02 am
 


Brenda Brenda:
So the muslims are right by letting their women wear a niqab or a burqa...


Sure. But forcing their women to wear them, not so much.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 12:30 am
 


Calgary offers Chronic Disease Self Management courses with ethnic and cultural bias in order to help various groups medically. I dont see any harm in doing the same with french classes if the demand is great enough to fill a classroom.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 8:15 am
 


andyt andyt:
Brenda Brenda:
So the muslims are right by letting their women wear a niqab or a burqa...


Sure. But forcing their women to wear them, not so much.

What makes you so sure they are forcing their women?
They are all raised this way, they don't know any different. The women I talked with, wearing a headscarf only tho, told me they wore them to show Allah their love for him, their trust (and all other bullcrap you can think of people use to justify why they believe in a god, ANY god).

Its not like they are going to be beaten up by their men if they don't wear it, it's part of their culture. And, yes, of course there are men who do, but there are men who kill their (ex)spouses in other religions including Atheism too.

Anywho, I think niqabs are nice for in their own country, but just as my bikini doesnt go over well there, niqabs dont go over well here.


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