[Praxius]

Akhenaten Akhenaten:

Because the Taliban cult has no allies only converts and enemies. In fact it desperately needs enemies to survive as a group. It's my belief they will not stop at Afghan borders.

The rest of your post I don't disagree enough with to argue.

Fair enough, and I respect other people's differing opinions on this and other subjects, so I hope you don't think I'm trying to bash you or your views or anything.

They take a very strict hard-line view on Islamic teaching and feel everybody should follow their ways... or so we're told by the media and our governments.

This is a risk, but unless they actually do invade or try to take over another nation and unless that nation asks for help from us... we have no business stepping in when we're not asked.

Nobody in Iraq asked us to do what the US did... Saddam wasn't a threat to anybody at that time, their war machine was inactive and they were not working on WMD.... and yet the US came in with guns blazing and look at what happened because of it.

Iraq doesn't have Taliban forces trying to screw the country up, it's Iraqi's / Insurgents doing this (their own people) Regardless of their connections to Iran or Al'Q or whoever... the greater majority of Iraqis never wanted the US in their country, and all of them wanted the US gone from day one. If the majority of them asked for US help, chances are the whole Iraqi war would have been done with years ago and so many people wouldn't have died or become displaced.

There has always been a conflict between the two Islamic sects in Iraq, but since the US came into the scene, one started blaming the other for them staying longer.

Once side blamed the other for their attacks which made the US stay longer for security, while the other blamed the them for supporting the US and making them stay longer...... a very bad and conflicting situation to be in, that's for sure. One side figured if they destabilize the US efforts, they'd give up and leave, while the other side figured if they sucked it up and just went along with the US, they'd leave sooner.... their differences on this, along with their own power struggles helped prolong the whole thing.

Don't forget that by many Muslims around the world, esspecially in Iraq.... Iraq is considered the "Holy Land" and forign no-believers setting foot on this land and occupying it is considered a great offense.

This is why unless a country or group invades another country and unless the invaded nation asks for our help, we should butt out..... or else what's stopping other nations from doing the same whenever they see fit and attack another nation under the cloak of "Freedom?"

$1:

That is a tired talking point. Please excuse me for saying so. Looks good on a placard but doesn't really make any sense or apply. No one has been forced at gunpoint to vote, no one. They vote of their own accord. So no one is forcing democracy at gun point. The Taliban on the other hand do threaten voters with death and they have guns. You mistake the fact that the democracy can be taken away at gunpoint, which leads to guns to defend it.

Actually perhaps you misunderstood my view on this... I never said they were forced to vote at gun point, what I meant was that they has an islamic government in place, which was removed by military force, which ended up causing many to die, suffer, lose loved one's etc.

And when the dust sorta settled a bit, the West says "Ok.... here's how your new way of life is going to be"

Nobody asked if they wanted Democracy, or Communism, or another Islamic government, etc.... they were told they're a Democracy now and these are the new laws and new way of living.

Where was the freedom to choose?

Added:

If we were going to choose for them what government they were going to have, the most logical thing would have been to create a moderate islamic government in which they could easily relate to and grow acustomed to. It's quite difficult to get the locals to support a form of government that's alien to them, and is also the reason why some/many afghans have more support for the Taliban then for the West.... simply due to what they can relate to better.

After they ran their own moderate-islamic government that supports their cultural beliefs better, they'd have the opportunity to actually choose if they wanted democracy involved or not.

[Lemmy]

The Taliban had the chance to keep their country. The west never intended to impose any new ways of life on these people. Yeah, we knew they were backward and their record on human rights and womens' rights were the shits, and we didn't much like their public hangings or destroying ancient artifacts and Buddas. But the west had no intentions or interests in breeching Afghanistan's sovereignty. All the west demanded was "Turn over Bin Laden to us." The Taliban refused. If they'd turned over Bin Laden, they'd still be in control of their own country.

Afghanistan HAD the freedom to choose between THEIR way of life or OURS. THEY chose the latter.

[Praxius]

Lemmy Lemmy:

The Taliban had the chance to keep their country. The west never intended to impose any new ways of life on these people. Yeah, we knew they were backward and their record on human rights and womens' rights were the shits, and we didn't much like their public hangings or destroying ancient artifacts and Buddas. But the west had no intentions or interests in breeching Afghanistan's sovereignty. All the west demanded was "Turn over Bin Laden to us." The Taliban refused. If they'd turned over Bin Laden, they'd still be in control of their own country.

Afghanistan HAD the freedom to choose between THEIR way of life or OURS. THEY chose the latter.

That's a pretty subjective way of choice open to many ways of interpretation based on how it all occured.

But Osama was in Pakistan at the time.... the only reason Afghanistan was attacked was because it was the largest concentration of Taliban rule outside of Pakistan that the US could make an example out of in their War on Terrorism.

They never attacked Pakistan at the time because at the time.... Pakistan was a part of the Commonwealth, Pakistan was an Ally, and Pakistan had Nukes.... yet they had Osama in their territory and President Mushforbrains didn't want to tick off the Taliban in his country, all the while getting a crap load of money from the US..... where did all that money go?

Well.... how cold the Taliban easily conduct cross border attacks in Afghanistan so easily and get their troop numbers up so high so quickly?

Afghanistan was supposed to be an easy target to make an example out of.

The War on Terrorism is just like the War on Drugs.... you can not declair war on a faceless intangible thing that has no real territory, orginization or identity and some how expect to win..... You might as well declare a War on Ghosts for all the good it's going to do.

Terrorism is an ideal.... drugs are a part of the Earth.... these goals are impossible to defeat.

[ShintoMale]

Bush gave the Taliban $43 million dollars in the summer of 2001 back in 1998 the Taliban where invited to Texas by big oil/gas to discuss a proposed trans-afghan oil/gas pipeline. nobody give a damn about the plight of the afghan people until the 911 attacks

[Guy_Fawkes]

rockindel1 rockindel1:

I am wondering if maybe I was not clear what I was trying to say.
What would we do if another country invaded Canada, to instill their "modern civilized democracy" or version of it. Would we just sit there ? or would we fight with our soldiers , police and militia beside them till the invaders left?
now pause and think about it for a second, and think what do the Afgans think?
Most Afgans dont know there is a difference between an American soldier and a Canadian or Nato one.I know if anyone invaded our country I would be out doing exactly what the afgan "insurgents" are doing
If the russians couldnt do this why do we think we can?
not trying to politicize this its just human nature the way I see it

Another armchair general...
They do know the difference, and dispite what you may assume the situation is not as simple as they invaded we must stop them. Please do some reasearch before coming back here and trying to play with the big boys.

[ridenrain]

US Democrat Charlie Wilson cared.

[Akhenaten]

Praxius Praxius:

Fair enough, and I respect other people's differing opinions on this and other subjects, so I hope you don't think I'm trying to bash you or your views or anything.

Not at all. There are many good reasons why someone would want us or NATO out of Afghanistan. We tried. The level of progress doesn't look convincing. NATO loses one soldier and it dominates the headlines. No one wants to see these men and women come back in a box. Civilian casualties. Even though I do not support withdrawal (yet) I understand why some people do and have no compelling need to convince them otherwise.

Praxius Praxius:

Actually perhaps you misunderstood my view on this... I never said they were forced to vote at gun point, what I meant was that they has an islamic government in place, which was removed by military force, which ended up causing many to die, suffer, lose loved one's etc.

Ok but an islamic government and democracy do not conflict with each other necessarily. Both Pakistan and India have very similar problems as Afghanistan. Ethnic groups, different religous sects that don't like each other, poverty, etc. and while they still have their troubles they've been able to advance. Afghanistan has been mucked with by everyone. The US, Russia, Iran, Pakistan, by Pakistan through proxy of the Taliban. Given the proper opportunity to advance there's no real reason they shouldn't be able to -- no real problems they shouldn't be able to overcome that India and Pakistan haven't overcome perviously.

[Praxius]

Akhenaten Akhenaten:

Praxius Praxius:

Fair enough, and I respect other people's differing opinions on this and other subjects, so I hope you don't think I'm trying to bash you or your views or anything.

Not at all. There are many good reasons why someone would want us or NATO out of Afghanistan. We tried. The level of progress doesn't look convincing. NATO loses one soldier and it dominates the headlines. No one wants to see these men and women come back in a box. Civilian casualties. Even though I do not support withdrawal (yet) I understand why some people do.

Praxius Praxius:

Actually perhaps you misunderstood my view on this... I never said they were forced to vote at gun point, what I meant was that they has an islamic government in place, which was removed by military force, which ended up causing many to die, suffer, lose loved one's etc.

Ok but an islamic government and democracy do not conflict with each other necessarily. Both Pakistan and India have very similar problems as Afghanistan. Ethnic groups, different religous sects that don't like each other, poverty, etc. and while they still have their troubles they've been able to advance. Afghanistan has been mucked with by everyone. The US, Russia, Iran, Pakistan. Given the proper opportunity to advance there's no real reason they shouldn't be able to -- no real problems they shouldn't be able to overcome that India and Pakistan haven't overcome perviously.

Well based on all the conflicts of opinions over this complicated situation, I guess we'll just have to hope our leaders can figure this all out for the best.

*shudders at the thought after typing*

[rockindel1]

ridenrain; I appreciate what you are saying but you dont see my view, let them fight it out themselves, why do we have to be the "policemen", forcing our systems and rules into place?
and sacrificing out brave young men and women?
they want to kill each other, however digusted and apalled we may be. its not our place to interfere.
it has nothing to do with whats headline news here,thats just to distract us from whats really happening around the world
like the fake H1N1 epidemic

[ridenrain]

I understand your point but I reject it because it oversimplifies a complex condition.

I'm not going to bother and try and convince you that it was the right thing to do but the bottom line is the average Afghan will be better off under western support than that of the Soviets or Iran.

[Proculation]

rockindel1 rockindel1:

ridenrain; I appreciate what you are saying but you dont see my view, let them fight it out themselves, why do we have to be the "policemen", forcing our systems and rules into place?
and sacrificing out brave young men and women?
they want to kill each other, however digusted and apalled we may be. its not our place to interfere.
it has nothing to do with whats headline news here,thats just to distract us from whats really happening around the world
like the fake H1N1 epidemic

We attacked because they attacked us please. We needed to remove them.

[Choban]

Lots of good points here from both sides of the issue, I'd like to add right or wrong that we have a commitment until 2011, after that assumably NATO's other members take the reigns and we hold a marginal skeleton force there to observe that all we've done doesn't go to shite.

I don't believe the war was pointless from the start, we have done good things there and the average afghan citizen knows it.
The Taliban very well may have been a scapegoat as far as the US is concearned but 1) they knowingly allowed Osama and his followers to train there, and 2) no one can tell me that they didn't know 9/11 was coming before hand and 3) they knew where he was and how to get to him when the US demanded he be turned in, weather it was in Pakistan or Afghanistan.
Fact is that we did go in with NATO, being one of the best suited members to conduct combat operations in the area, yes the US left to pursue their war in Iraq, and yes they were wrong on this point (which is why NATO and Canada DID NOT follow suit) so to say we are the US's mop-up crew is innacurate, we stood up and said, no proof, no war when it comes to Iraq.
Now the Iraq war is winding down and US troops are joining ours.

The right answer is though, that our commitment is done in 2011, Afghanistan must be able to stand up on it's own by then. Step are and have been made. The ANA and ANP must be able to police their own country by this time. The US can stay and assist, the Brits and US have done our part (or are wrapping it up) Our troops should and I very strongly hope return home as scheduled.
Bless the troops (some of whom I'm very close with), alot of them keep going back and not because they are ordered to, but because they see day to day the changes wrought with the blood of their brothers and sisters, they believe they are making a difference and they don't want to see it all be for nothing.

[Lemmy]

Praxius Praxius:

That's a pretty subjective way of choice open to many ways of interpretation based on how it all occured.

It's a pretty popular theory.

Praxius Praxius:

But Osama was in Pakistan at the time.... the only reason Afghanistan was attacked was because it was the largest concentration of Taliban rule outside of Pakistan that the US could make an example out of in their War on Terrorism.

Yeah, you know he was in Pakistan how? Another popular theory, true, but far from anything more than your subjective interpretation on how it all occured.