[BartSimpson]

First off, the article was supposedly about why Canadians are supposedly obligated to hate America and then the guy just goes off and spews more hate at America. Nice.

Second, I do not understand the general Canadian fascination with obsessing about the USA. It's really very French, in my opinion.

Now let me clarify that my comments are only directed at the seeming majority who obsess about the USA. Yes, I know some of you could care less about the USA and this is not at all directed at you.

We are a different country, as Derby so aptly pointed out last year. If you could accept that and not play some silly, pointless pissing war over who is better or worse in what regard we'd get along much better.

For instance, the general Canadian fascination with US health care comes to mind. What the hell do you care about how we manage and get on with health care? It's not as if you pay for our uninsured people out of Ottawa's general budget. Yet you act like you do. For some of you imposing a national socialised health care scheme on the USA would appear to be your raison de vivre.

I often wonder that many Americans probably oppose a national health care scheme simply for that we don't want you folks to get the idea that we did it at your suggestion.

Yes, I understand that we're right next door and kind of hard to ignore. But still, if you obsessive folks paid as much attention to Canada as you do to bashing the USA then Canada would be one damn fine and spiffy place.

Frankly, if you hate the USA then leave us alone. Focus on Canadian issues and Canadian problems and when you're confronted with a question about why people in some teensy town in Arizona have a high arsenic content in their water simply say, "Who cares, that would be America's problem."

Now, I am the first person to note that most Americans cannot find America on a map of America.

Our education elites - liberals all of them - decided forty years ago that the sciences in general were not to be a focus of education in the USA anymore because kids who failed at the sciences suffered from poor self esteem when they were advised of their shortcomings. Geography used to be an entire subject unto itself that was taught in American schools and now it is something that a social sciences teacher is expected to gloss over in a one hour class once per year.

It is no surprise to me that Americans have become more and more illiterate over the years despite higher and higher graduation rates in the schools. The schools are simply graduating the ignorant.

Consequently, the NEA and their members adamantly oppose standardized testing as a means of forcing teachers to teach meaningful subjects and as a means of forcing liberalised curriculae to be thrown away in favour of actually preparing students to succeed in the real world.

My wife and I have for years subsidized young people who attend private elementary schools, secondary schools, and colleges such as Hillsdale College for the exact reason that the only way to save children from the ignorance being promulgated in the public schools is to support the private schools that provide a traditional and rigorous education. One of our young charges defended her doctoral thesis at Oxford in 2004 and we are singularly pleased that we contributed to that.

The children we've sponsored over the years are knowledgeable, literate, and creative courtesy of the foundation of learning they've been exposed to.

My reason for posting this is because if you really want to improve America you'd stop obsessing about our health care, our tax rates, and other minutiae and you'd pay more attention to the crappy educations our children are receiving in the union and liberal dominated public schools.

Our kids are not going to ever know sh*t about Canada because our schools don't teach one bloody thing anymore past how to put on a condom and how to vote Democrat.

[OPP]

It's very hard ignoring the bully on the school yard when he's giving you a wedgie, Bart.

[sandorski]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

First off, the article was supposedly about why Canadians are supposedly obligated to hate America and then the guy just goes off and spews more hate at America. Nice.

Second, I do not understand the general Canadian fascination with obsessing about the USA. It's really very French, in my opinion.

Now let me clarify that my comments are only directed at the seeming majority who obsess about the USA. Yes, I know some of you could care less about the USA and this is not at all directed at you.

We are a different country, as Derby so aptly pointed out last year. If you could accept that and not play some silly, pointless pissing war over who is better or worse in what regard we'd get along much better.

For instance, the general Canadian fascination with US health care comes to mind. What the hell do you care about how we manage and get on with health care? It's not as if you pay for our uninsured people out of Ottawa's general budget. Yet you act like you do. For some of you imposing a national socialised health care scheme on the USA would appear to be your raison de vivre.

I often wonder that many Americans probably oppose a national health care scheme simply for that we don't want you folks to get the idea that we did it at your suggestion.

Yes, I understand that we're right next door and kind of hard to ignore. But still, if you obsessive folks paid as much attention to Canada as you do to bashing the USA then Canada would be one damn fine and spiffy place.

Frankly, if you hate the USA then leave us alone. Focus on Canadian issues and Canadian problems and when you're confronted with a question about why people in some teensy town in Arizona have a high arsenic content in their water simply say, "Who cares, that would be America's problem."

Now, I am the first person to note that most Americans cannot find America on a map of America.

Our education elites - liberals all of them - decided forty years ago that the sciences in general were not to be a focus of education in the USA anymore because kids who failed at the sciences suffered from poor self esteem when they were advised of their shortcomings. Geography used to be an entire subject unto itself that was taught in American schools and now it is something that a social sciences teacher is expected to gloss over in a one hour class once per year.

It is no surprise to me that Americans have become more and more illiterate over the years despite higher and higher graduation rates in the schools. The schools are simply graduating the ignorant.

Consequently, the NEA and their members adamantly oppose standardized testing as a means of forcing teachers to teach meaningful subjects and as a means of forcing liberalised curriculae to be thrown away in favour of actually preparing students to succeed in the real world.

My wife and I have for years subsidized young people who attend private elementary schools, secondary schools, and colleges such as Hillsdale College for the exact reason that the only way to save children from the ignorance being promulgated in the public schools is to support the private schools that provide a traditional and rigorous education. One of our young charges defended her doctoral thesis at Oxford in 2004 and we are singularly pleased that we contributed to that.

The children we've sponsored over the years are knowledgeable, literate, and creative courtesy of the foundation of learning they've been exposed to.

My reason for posting this is because if you really want to improve America you'd stop obsessing about our health care, our tax rates, and other minutiae and you'd pay more attention to the crappy educations our children are receiving in the union and liberal dominated public schools.

Our kids are not going to ever know sh*t about Canada because our schools don't teach one bloody thing anymore past how to put on a condom and how to vote Democrat.

Well, it goes both ways. We "obsess" about American Healthcare mainly because our Healthcare has problems and we're looking for a solution and most of us see the American system is more flawed than our own. On the flipside, Americans are also trying to fix their Healthcare and see the Canadian system the same way we see theirs. Agreements like NAFTA have opened a can of worms where the US, at times, tries to pressure us into adopting American systems that we simply don't want. So the issue won't be going away any time soon.

As far as things being "very French", I'd say that Very French and Very American are pretty much the same thing. Both France and the US can be and are too often pretentious little pricks about things. They are both the same, born of the same Values, have the same Political beginnings, and have the same view of themselves in the World.

Canada's "obsession" really isn't an obsession at all. We just are simply aware of the influence the US exerts on us and are attempting to make our own way with our own values despite those influences.

About the only thing I'll agree with you on is that the Article's Title and Content differ.

[BartSimpson]

OPP OPP:

It's very hard ignoring the bully on the school yard when he's giving you a wedgie, Bart.

When Canadians complain that the USA is giving them a collective wedgie the problem they have is that the USA (up until recently) collectively could care less.

Why? Because Canadians collectively have a reputation for hating the USA just as the author of the article so clearly does. Thus, when Canadians complain about how they get treated on trade and etc. it's really hard to drum up any sympathy from Americans whose opinions about Canada are derived from what they get from CBC, Canadian television shows that condescend to Americans, Liberal PMs and their apparatchiks, and Canadian comedians who slam on America.

Sure, we laugh and giggle about the jokes that slam on us. But then when we're asked to open up our struggling lumber industry to competition from Canada we have a tough time finding a valid reason why we should give up American jobs so people who ostensibly look down at us and openly hate us should profit from selling lumber to the very people they say they hate.

Now that Harper is in charge in Canada and his appointees are not on the US evening news voicing their contempt of President BUsh and the USA in general things are improving between our two countries. Likewise, President Sarkozy of France in fewer words than are in this thread has done more to improve Franco-American relations than the past fifty years of French leadership combined. We're suddenly one hell of a lot more interested in being friendly to France because their President has merely said that he wants to be friends with us. He hasn't actually done anything yet, but he has changed an awful lot of opinions in the USA with a mere few words.

Simply put, when you say you don't like us enough we're eventually going to pay attention. The bottom line is that Americans don't really give a sh*t what anyone dislikes about America. All they hear is that you dislike America. The conversation for us tends to end right there.

Consequently, they go out of their way for the people who say they like us (like the United Kingdom and Israel, for instance) and we have a tough time mustering concern for the opinions of those who say they hate us or dislike us. We're not worried about winning you over in the least.

But once you say you want to be our friend, as Mr. Sarkozy has, you'll find that we want to be your friend, too.

[BartSimpson]

sandorski sandorski:

About the only thing I'll agree with you on is that the Article's Title and Content differ.

Nice to know we have some common ground, then.

[OPP]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

OPP OPP:

It's very hard ignoring the bully on the school yard when he's giving you a wedgie, Bart.

When Canadians complain that the USA is giving them a collective wedgie the problem they have is that the USA (up until recently) collectively could care less.

Why? Because Canadians collectively have a reputation for hating the USA just as the author of the article so clearly does. Thus, when Canadians complain about how they get treated on trade and etc. it's really hard to drum up any sympathy from Americans whose opinions about Canada are derived from what they get from CBC, Canadian television shows that condescend to Americans, Liberal PMs and their apparatchiks, and Canadian comedians who slam on America.

Wait here just a minute now. You are the one crying about people hating america. Now you're saying that you americans can't care less about why people hate america becaus they hate america???[huh] Sounds like a neverending spiral of america hating there.

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

But once you say you want to be our friend, as Mr. Sarkozy has, you'll find that we want to be your friend, too.

Who want's to be friends with a bully? That would be a coward or a likeminded person who ultimately is a coward.

[DerbyX]

$1:

Second, I do not understand the general Canadian fascination with obsessing about the USA. It's really very French, in my opinion.

Now let me clarify that my comments are only directed at the seeming majority who obsess about the USA. Yes, I know some of you could care less about the USA and this is not at all directed at you.

Its a form of flattery to be honest. Its like everybody in the league hating the most successfull sports team. Everybody compares themselves to the top right. Its the same as why so many cities in Canada spend so much time attacking Toronto and professing their hatred of us. Envy plays a big part.

$1:

We are a different country, as Derby so aptly pointed out last year. If you could accept that and not play some silly, pointless pissing war over who is better or worse in what regard we'd get along much better.

I agree with ....... me!

$1:

For instance, the general Canadian fascination with US health care comes to mind. What the hell do you care about how we manage and get on with health care? It's not as if you pay for our uninsured people out of Ottawa's general budget. Yet you act like you do. For some of you imposing a national socialised health care scheme on the USA would appear to be your raison de vivre.

This is the quote that drew my response. To be honest I see the opposite. I see alot of US politicians proposing some sort of universal health care plan and they all invariably cite Canada. When our healthcare is mentioned I often see other countries cited like France & Finland, countries with similiar systems that do things we could easily adjust to. When we do cite the US as an example we invariable say 1 of 2 things: 1) We cite medical bill bankruptcy and lack of affordable care as a plus of our system and 2) faster secondary care as a plus of yours.

OPnce again the focus should always be on what we can learn from each other and not what we should teach/dictate to each other.

$1:

I often wonder that many Americans probably oppose a national health care scheme simply for that we don't want you folks to get the idea that we did it at your suggestion.

I can see that just as I can see Canadians rejecting a perfectly sound idea becasue it came from the US. Hell, I bet every country does that with regards to every other country. Can you imagine the English adopt a "made in France" solution? Hell no.

$1:

Yes, I understand that we're right next door and kind of hard to ignore. But still, if you obsessive folks paid as much attention to Canada as you do to bashing the USA then Canada would be one damn fine and spiffy place.

A valid point. Still, what good is preening your wiskers and making sure your cubby-hole is nice and clean if the elephant simply rolls over in its sleep and quashes you flat.

$1:

Frankly, if you hate the USA then leave us alone. Focus on Canadian issues and Canadian problems and when you're confronted with a question about why people in some teensy town in Arizona have a high arsenic content in their water simply say, "Who cares, that would be America's problem."

I'd agree with that sentiment except for one thing. America has a habit of making very large international splashs that affect us. Regardless of which side of the wars you are on Canada became involved not by choice but by relationship. The US made a decision to go to war and regardless of what position we took it had profound reprecussions on our country.

Thats the rule rather then the exception. Given this then perhaps you can agree that we have a vested interest in what poltics will come into play. For good or ill, if your politics didn't almost always include us in one way or another then your point would be far more valid. As it is I think its valid to say the opposite.

$1:

My reason for posting this is because if you really want to improve America you'd stop obsessing about our health care, our tax rates, and other minutiae and you'd pay more attention to the crappy educations our children are receiving in the union and liberal dominated public schools.

You were doing so well. Ah well, its friday. First, I disagree with your assement of your own eductaion system. A quick glance at the top universities around the world seems to support this. As for obsessing about your health care ......., even this forum doesn't support that. Sure we have a few posters who attack the US mostly on the basis of its foreign policy but by and large we seem pretty preoccupied with internal politics. The majority of threads seem to suggest Canada is mostly retarded anti-Liberals masquerading as pro-CPC hacks.

(couldn't resist).

I guess we all see things slightly slanted. I think the rest of Canada should get over their incessant need to hate Toronto just as you feel the same but towards the US.

Perspective is 95% of life. The other 5% is alcohol.

[BartSimpson]

OPP,
If you don't want to be our friend then we don't care to be yours. That simple.

And if we bully you around then don't get too upset because we weren't friends anyway, right?

Example:

North Korea puts on a big show about how much they hate America and want to nuke us the first chance they get. In turn, our forces regularly run exercises to practice reducing that country to rubble and our government makes a sport of screwing up their economy.

South Korea puts on a big show about how they're our best friend in Asia. They get to sell their cars, their steel, and etc. in the USA with very few restrictions whatsoever. US forces also make clear that we're committed to South Korean sovereignty.

When North Korea complains about the USA bullying them we tell our government leaders: "Good job!"

When South Korea ever complains about the USA bullying them we ask our government leaders: "WTF are you doing?"

Sweden, on the other hand, isn't really anyone's friend or enemy so we just don't care about Sweden one way or the other. If we happen to do something nice for you, fine. If we happen to screw you over, that's fine, too, as it's not like we're losing a friend anyway.

[DerbyX]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

If you don't want to be our friend then we don't care to be yours. That simple.

And if we bully you around then don't get too upset because we weren't friends anyway, right?

Example:

North Korea puts on a big show about how much they hate America and want to nuke us the first chance they get. In turn, our forces regularly run exercises to practice reducing that country to rubble and our government makes a sport of screwing up their economy.

South Korea puts on a big show about how they're our best friend in Asia. They get to sell their cars, their steel, and etc. in the USA with very few restrictions whatsoever. US forces also make clear that we're committed to South Korean sovereignty.

When North Korea complains about the USA bullying them we tell our government leaders: "Good job!"

When South Korea ever complains about the USA bullying them we ask our government leaders: "WTF are you doing?"

Sweden, on the other hand, isn't really anyone's friend or enemy so we just don't care about Sweden one way or the other. If we happen to do something nice for you, fine. If we happen to screw you over, that's fine, too, as it's not like we're losing a friend anyway.

Was this for me because I don't think I used the term bully?

edit: Sorry, I just read OPPs post.

I thought it was rather fast for you to read and respond to my post.

Just remember I gave you credit for speed and intelligence.

[OPP]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

If you don't want to be our friend then we don't care to be yours. That simple.

Why piss us off in the first place!

$1:

And if we bully you around then don't get too upset because we weren't friends anyway, right?

So, why did you invade Iraq? You weren't friends after all.

$1:

Example:

bla bla bla don't care to read your tripe

[BartSimpson]

DerbyX DerbyX:

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

If you don't want to be our friend then we don't care to be yours. That simple.

And if we bully you around then don't get too upset because we weren't friends anyway, right?

Example:

North Korea puts on a big show about how much they hate America and want to nuke us the first chance they get. In turn, our forces regularly run exercises to practice reducing that country to rubble and our government makes a sport of screwing up their economy.

South Korea puts on a big show about how they're our best friend in Asia. They get to sell their cars, their steel, and etc. in the USA with very few restrictions whatsoever. US forces also make clear that we're committed to South Korean sovereignty.

When North Korea complains about the USA bullying them we tell our government leaders: "Good job!"

When South Korea ever complains about the USA bullying them we ask our government leaders: "WTF are you doing?"

Sweden, on the other hand, isn't really anyone's friend or enemy so we just don't care about Sweden one way or the other. If we happen to do something nice for you, fine. If we happen to screw you over, that's fine, too, as it's not like we're losing a friend anyway.

Was this for me because I don't think I used the term bully?

Nope - see the edit.

[BartSimpson]

DerbyX DerbyX:

Just remember I gave you credit for speed and intelligence.

More than I give myself anymore.

See, I've been investing in that 5% of life with a much higher frequency lately!

[BartSimpson]

OPP OPP:

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

If you don't want to be our friend then we don't care to be yours. That simple.

Why piss us off in the first place!

Because we can. Because you said you didn't like us. Because we made money screwing you over and because you said you don't like us anyway we have the added bonus of not feeling guilty about it. Heck, because you say you don't like us we may even enjoy screwing you over.

As to Iraq, the invasion mostly comes down to the general consensus of Americans in 2003 that we were sick of Iraq's sh*t after twelve years of them shooting missiles at our fighters patrolling the UN no-fly zone and we were sick of them endlessly dicking around with the UN inspections. Iraq spent twelve years provoking another war so Saddam Hussein could strut around acting like the big man who tweaked the USA. Bear in mind, too, he said he was itching to kick our butts and was only hoping that we'd engage his Republican Guards on Iraqi soil. He got his wish.

Considering that the 1991 war was ended with an armistice and not a peace treaty the 2003 war was merely a resumption of hostilities.

Given that the Democrats in Congress were adamantly on Bush's butt for Bush to invade it could be reasonably concluded that had Al Gore been President in 2003 nothing would have been any different.

Had Hussein not made a hobby of shooting at UN mandated forces and had he not made a hobby out of making the UN inspections look like a farce the war absolutely would not have happened no matter what the intentions of the US President were.

We did not invade Iraq out of the clear blue sky. Our buildup took almost seven months and at anytime during those seven months Hussein could've elected to start acting according to the UN Resolutions and we'd have had no reason to invade. As it was, I think the man thought we were bluffing and that the buildup was just being put on for show. I don't think he expected us to follow through with the action and thus he didn't change his behavior.

The point, though, is that Iraq at that time really, really didn't like us. And we really, really didn't care.

Had Hussein been all kissy-face after the 1991 war and made nice we would have gone out of our way to help Iraq rebuild from the 1991 war and he'd still be alive and in power.

I know you will find fault with all of this, but, again, my point is that you're a Swede and your opinion doesn't count for sh*t in the USA save but with the few people who sip chai at a tea house in San Francisco.

The reason I even bother about this thread so far as Canada is concerned is because I like Canada and want Canada to be a friend of the USA and to reap the benefits of that friendship.

I want Canada to be our friend and it is my belief that Canada and the USA have much more to gain by appreciating what we like about each other than in bitching about what we dislike in each other.

[martin14]

well said, Bart

[Streaker]

"Be my friend - or else!" seems like a pretty dumb way of trying to make friends.