[Ripcat]

ridenrain ridenrain:

So Dion is against lowering taxes?
That should go over well in Toronto because it looks like they like that sort of thing.

You know full well that Dion is not against tax cuts.

For those that really don't know: Dion is against a GST cut but he is all for corporate, business and personal tax cuts.

Would you rather your personal income tax get cut $500 a year or will you be spending over $50000 a year on GST taxed items each year, spending $50k is the only way you'd make back that $500.

The GST cut is all show with no substance.

[DerbyX]

neopundit neopundit:

ridenrain ridenrain:

So Dion is against lowering taxes?

Read the article. I know you don't like Dion, but how about looking at this with an open mind. For once.

Dion suggests cutting corporate taxes. So do 10 billion economists. Cutting the GST does nothing for the economy. It's a political move, because suckers fall for it.

And "At least he's cutting taxes!" is no argument. As has been said already, he's raised the income tax and taxed the income trusts. Besides, if my dog takes a shit in the living room, I don't say "At least he didn't shit in the bed!"

The cat already had because the dog was to slow.

[Winnipegger]

neopundit neopundit:

Dion suggests cutting corporate taxes. So do 10 billion economists. Cutting the GST does nothing for the economy. It's a political move, because suckers fall for it.

Actually economists say you have to cut income and capital taxes, not consumption taxes. They don't say whether the cut should be corporate or personal.

Oh, the Liberal government under Chrétien/Martin completely abolished federal corporate capital tax.

[Winnipegger]

Numure Numure:

If they lowered my Federal Taxe rate by about 1%, I'd get in the best years a maximum of 2000$ back. With the last GST drop, since we are big consumers, we saved close to 3000$ per year.

How does that work? You pay income tax on all income, but pay GST only on some consumer goods. You don't pay GST on your house mortgage or apartment rent, you don't pay on food bought at a grocery store. You do pay for restaurant meals. Remember any change to income tax comes off your taxable income, it doesn't come off your basic personal deduction or any other deduction.

[Numure]

Winnipegger Winnipegger:

Numure Numure:

If they lowered my Federal Taxe rate by about 1%, I'd get in the best years a maximum of 2000$ back. With the last GST drop, since we are big consumers, we saved close to 3000$ per year.

How does that work? You pay income tax on all income, but pay GST only on some consumer goods. You don't pay GST on your house mortgage or apartment rent, you don't pay on food bought at a grocery store. You do pay for restaurant meals. Remember any change to income tax comes off your taxable income, it doesn't come off your basic personal deduction or any other deduction.

We change our cars every 2 years. We don't do rentals, we resell and buy a new one. We always go to Cuba twice a year. We change most of our electronics and appliances ever 3-4 years as well. My wife keeps a tight book on everything, so it was easy for her to calculate how much we would save.

[Winnipegger]

Well, must be nice. Most of us aren't rich enough to do that. However, that still don't make sense; you have to pay income tax on all taxable income, but pay GST only on those things you've listed. You don't pay income tax on apartement rent or mortgage, or groceries.

[ridenrain]

One year after the income trusts ended and it looks like the economy has survived.
It was all nonsense. The fact is that the trust structure had become a vehicle for the capitalization of the tax preference by corporate reorganizers, making a lot of people rich but not really adding anything to the overall economy or, in the long run, the wealth of investors.

The good news is that :

$1:

Canada's opposition Liberal Party reaffirmed on Tuesday that it would not trigger an election over the minority Conservative government's fiscal and economic update

What a suprise there.

[ryan29]

ridenrain ridenrain:

So Dion is against lowering taxes?
That should go over well in Toronto because it looks like they like that sort of thing.

toronto seems so odd say i just happened to drive thru there today , couldn't help but notice all the businesses and corprations along 401 , it doesn't make sense for a business run city like that to keep electing who it does . why put someone like david miller as mayor and why vote for dalton mcguinty both of who raised taxes and did nothing for businesses.

that city seems to have los all sense of reason.

[HyperionTheEvil]

DerbyX DerbyX:

Tricks Tricks:

DerbyX DerbyX:

Tricks Tricks:

I like the lowering of taxes, but it wouldn't kill us, and could probably help us in the long run that if we kept this one percent, everything we make goes straight to the debt.

Unless we are expecting mroe record surplus. Then have at er.

The surpluses are going to either used or needed for big ticket military purchases. Those aren't being counted in determining the surplus level. We can't lower the debt, cut taxes and still buy all the big toys.

All in all Dion makes a well reasoned argument against it.

As a caveat we will be losing out on the GST we make from visitors to Canada for all the little non-refundable puirchases they make.

Corporate tax cuts fuel job growth (something Bart has mentioned time and again) so we mitigate lost revenues with new revenues gained as well as providing more jobs.

Canada's economy is going up quickly, so even with the big military purchases, we should be able to sustain it.

Our economy isn't going up enough to buy new jets, warships, helicopters, icebreakers etc at the same time as cutting taxes and increase spending.

Something will suffer. We will either stop paying down the debt or worse go back into deficit spending or make up the money elsewhere. That or not buy all the new euipment the military wants.

In addition, when and if the US recession hits it may hit us hard and that is entirely why the Liberals continued paying down the debt and exactly why it is important to always slash away at it.

What you're saying is flying in the face of the facts.

Our economy has been going up for years and every year people complaing about the surplues we've had and wondering why we have them. Back in the bad old days of the Liberals the surpluses were from many sources and were genrally split betwen purchases and paying down the debt. But over the years Canadians have realized that they are completely over-taxed. The whole point of the GST (which if i remember correctly the Liberals promised to eliminate - but never did) was to pay off the national debt, instead it became a money machine to fund the usual Liberal social programs, and then still have billions and billions left over..

If one has actually moved away from the tax and spend policies of the Liberal Party (Chretien., Martin and Dion) is that the economic future of a country depends on the abiity of its citizens to earn money, not the abiity of a Goverment to take from them. Once the economy improves - as it has in Canada - even lower taxes over time reult in more tax dollars to use even though the overall tax rate is lower.

As far as you insinuation that Canada cannot afford militray hardware for the men and women who protect us , it would be the same to say that we cannot afford to fund our police forces, or provide body armour for the poilice to do thier jobs. In fact our economy is doing just fine now and in the past, and as a matter fact we can afford new equipment for our Armed forces since they not only protect us abroad but also at home. Specifically during the Quebec Ice Storms and the Flood of the century the militray was out in full force doing what they always do. Helping Canadian citizens- all of them.

As for your doom and gloom about the Canadian Economy suddenly taking the whole point making an economy stable is to provide a healthy enivroment for private business (I know a dirty word for many Liberals) to invest here, create jobs here and thereby provide an income for families. You cannot expect to keep taxes high forever and simply hope that companies will invest here because they like the view. If you want to prevent being so tied to the American economy we must be try to be more like the americans in the sense of keeping corporate and personal taxes low, and thereby ensuring that the jobs that pay well will be there. That all being said Canadians must realize that the high paying jobs dont just drop into your lap, Canadians must be more competitive, they must educate themselves better and in general prepare themselves for a lifetime of work in the marketplace. That is the reality of the situation.

Not only that but if anyone hadn't noticed that American economy has been dragged by several issues, once of which is massive overspending. Not just in the Iraq war but for most of the last 30 years. Canada has long since reversed that trend that began with the PC's introducing the GST in the first place.


Canadians have been doing the job of being over-taxed and it is now more than time that they recevied a reward for thier patience

[ryan29]

more on my travels today happened to pass thru another riding some of you might find interesting .
halton / milton area home of Garth Turner , noticed alot of stores along 401 including walmart , home depot , canadian tire , loblaws and many more .
does the liberals and garth turner really think these shoping crazed people are against the gst cut ? does he have any clue what his constituents want ?
i'm sure if we asked them in person they'd be all for this tax cut.

[DerbyX]

HyperionTheEvil HyperionTheEvil:

DerbyX DerbyX:

Tricks Tricks:

DerbyX DerbyX:

Tricks Tricks:

I like the lowering of taxes, but it wouldn't kill us, and could probably help us in the long run that if we kept this one percent, everything we make goes straight to the debt.

Unless we are expecting mroe record surplus. Then have at er.

The surpluses are going to either used or needed for big ticket military purchases. Those aren't being counted in determining the surplus level. We can't lower the debt, cut taxes and still buy all the big toys.

All in all Dion makes a well reasoned argument against it.

As a caveat we will be losing out on the GST we make from visitors to Canada for all the little non-refundable puirchases they make.

Corporate tax cuts fuel job growth (something Bart has mentioned time and again) so we mitigate lost revenues with new revenues gained as well as providing more jobs.

Canada's economy is going up quickly, so even with the big military purchases, we should be able to sustain it.

Our economy isn't going up enough to buy new jets, warships, helicopters, icebreakers etc at the same time as cutting taxes and increase spending.

Something will suffer. We will either stop paying down the debt or worse go back into deficit spending or make up the money elsewhere. That or not buy all the new euipment the military wants.

In addition, when and if the US recession hits it may hit us hard and that is entirely why the Liberals continued paying down the debt and exactly why it is important to always slash away at it.

What you're saying is flying in the face of the facts.

Our economy has been going up for years and every year people complaing about the surplues we've had and wondering why we have them. Back in the bad old days of the Liberals the surpluses were from many sources and were genrally split betwen purchases and paying down the debt. But over the years Canadians have realized that they are completely over-taxed. The whole point of the GST (which if i remember correctly the Liberals promised to eliminate - but never did) was to pay off the national debt, instead it became a money machine to fund the usual Liberal social programs, and then still have billions and billions left over..

If one has actually moved away from the tax and spend policies of the Liberal Party (Chretien., Martin and Dion) is that the economic future of a country depends on the abiity of its citizens to earn money, not the abiity of a Goverment to take from them. Once the economy improves - as it has in Canada - even lower taxes over time reult in more tax dollars to use even though the overall tax rate is lower.

As far as you insinuation that Canada cannot afford militray hardware for the men and women who protect us , it would be the same to say that we cannot afford to fund our police forces, or provide body armour for the poilice to do thier jobs. In fact our economy is doing just fine now and in the past, and as a matter fact we can afford new equipment for our Armed forces since they not only protect us abroad but also at home. Specifically during the Quebec Ice Storms and the Flood of the century the militray was out in full force doing what they always do. Helping Canadian citizens- all of them.

As for your doom and gloom about the Canadian Economy suddenly taking the whole point making an economy stable is to provide a healthy enivroment for private business (I know a dirty word for many Liberals) to invest here, create jobs here and thereby provide an income for families. You cannot expect to keep taxes high forever and simply hope that companies will invest here because they like the view. If you want to prevent being so tied to the American economy we must be try to be more like the americans in the sense of keeping corporate and personal taxes low, and thereby ensuring that the jobs that pay well will be there. That all being said Canadians must realize that the high paying jobs dont just drop into your lap, Canadians must be more competitive, they must educate themselves better and in general prepare themselves for a lifetime of work in the marketplace. That is the reality of the situation.

Not only that but if anyone hadn't noticed that American economy has been dragged by several issues, once of which is massive overspending. Not just in the Iraq war but for most of the last 30 years. Canada has long since reversed that trend that began with the PC's introducing the GST in the first place.


Canadians have been doing the job of being over-taxed and it is now more than time that they recevied a reward for thier patience

Go back and re-read my post because you got it entirely bass-ackwards. Entirely.

[HyperionTheEvil]

DerbyX DerbyX:

HyperionTheEvil HyperionTheEvil:

DerbyX DerbyX:

Tricks Tricks:

DerbyX DerbyX:

Tricks Tricks:

I like the lowering of taxes, but it wouldn't kill us, and could probably help us in the long run that if we kept this one percent, everything we make goes straight to the debt.

Unless we are expecting mroe record surplus. Then have at er.

The surpluses are going to either used or needed for big ticket military purchases. Those aren't being counted in determining the surplus level. We can't lower the debt, cut taxes and still buy all the big toys.

All in all Dion makes a well reasoned argument against it.

As a caveat we will be losing out on the GST we make from visitors to Canada for all the little non-refundable puirchases they make.

Corporate tax cuts fuel job growth (something Bart has mentioned time and again) so we mitigate lost revenues with new revenues gained as well as providing more jobs.

Canada's economy is going up quickly, so even with the big military purchases, we should be able to sustain it.

Our economy isn't going up enough to buy new jets, warships, helicopters, icebreakers etc at the same time as cutting taxes and increase spending.

Something will suffer. We will either stop paying down the debt or worse go back into deficit spending or make up the money elsewhere. That or not buy all the new euipment the military wants.

In addition, when and if the US recession hits it may hit us hard and that is entirely why the Liberals continued paying down the debt and exactly why it is important to always slash away at it.

What you're saying is flying in the face of the facts.

Our economy has been going up for years and every year people complaing about the surplues we've had and wondering why we have them. Back in the bad old days of the Liberals the surpluses were from many sources and were genrally split betwen purchases and paying down the debt. But over the years Canadians have realized that they are completely over-taxed. The whole point of the GST (which if i remember correctly the Liberals promised to eliminate - but never did) was to pay off the national debt, instead it became a money machine to fund the usual Liberal social programs, and then still have billions and billions left over..

If one has actually moved away from the tax and spend policies of the Liberal Party (Chretien., Martin and Dion) is that the economic future of a country depends on the abiity of its citizens to earn money, not the abiity of a Goverment to take from them. Once the economy improves - as it has in Canada - even lower taxes over time reult in more tax dollars to use even though the overall tax rate is lower.

As far as you insinuation that Canada cannot afford militray hardware for the men and women who protect us , it would be the same to say that we cannot afford to fund our police forces, or provide body armour for the poilice to do thier jobs. In fact our economy is doing just fine now and in the past, and as a matter fact we can afford new equipment for our Armed forces since they not only protect us abroad but also at home. Specifically during the Quebec Ice Storms and the Flood of the century the militray was out in full force doing what they always do. Helping Canadian citizens- all of them.

As for your doom and gloom about the Canadian Economy suddenly taking the whole point making an economy stable is to provide a healthy enivroment for private business (I know a dirty word for many Liberals) to invest here, create jobs here and thereby provide an income for families. You cannot expect to keep taxes high forever and simply hope that companies will invest here because they like the view. If you want to prevent being so tied to the American economy we must be try to be more like the americans in the sense of keeping corporate and personal taxes low, and thereby ensuring that the jobs that pay well will be there. That all being said Canadians must realize that the high paying jobs dont just drop into your lap, Canadians must be more competitive, they must educate themselves better and in general prepare themselves for a lifetime of work in the marketplace. That is the reality of the situation.

Not only that but if anyone hadn't noticed that American economy has been dragged by several issues, once of which is massive overspending. Not just in the Iraq war but for most of the last 30 years. Canada has long since reversed that trend that began with the PC's introducing the GST in the first place.


Canadians have been doing the job of being over-taxed and it is now more than time that they recevied a reward for thier patience

Go back and re-read my post because you got it entirely bass-ackwards. Entirely.

Your post and i Quote

$1:

Our economy isn't going up enough to buy new jets, warships, helicopters, icebreakers etc at the same time as cutting taxes and increase spending.

Something will suffer. We will either stop paying down the debt or worse go back into deficit spending or make up the money elsewhere. That or not buy all the new euipment the military wants.

In addition, when and if the US recession hits it may hit us hard and that is entirely why the Liberals continued paying down the debt and exactly why it is important to always slash away at it.

I quoted you correctly and within context.

Your claim is essentially that Canada cannot afford to buy new militray equipment for our armed forces amongst other things, while at the sane time as cutting taxes and paying down the national debt. And the reason for this is that in your view our economy isn't "going up enough"

You are wrong

Events have and will continue to prove you wrong

If you are confused i sense that is natural within the Liberal Party mind-set so i suggest that you either think before you type, or re-read your own post

[Winnipegger]

Gross public debt for 1985-86 was $274.8 billion. The market debt portion was $201.229 billion. I the document I found doesn't list gross public debt for 1984, but the market debt for 1984-85 was 172.719 billion. The 1984 election was September 4, so that was in the 1984-85 fiscal year. The 1993 election was on November 4, in the 1993-94 fiscal year. The gross public debt for that year was $546.4 billion. Mulroney doubled the debt.

The current debt sits at $467.5 billion. Although the gross debt reached a high of $640.4 billion, and the Liberal government not only reduced that but paid the debt down below the 1993 level that Mulroney left, we still haven't reached the 1984 level. We still haven't paid off the debt from the Mulroney years.

[neopundit]

HyperionTheEvil HyperionTheEvil:

Canadians have been doing the job of being over-taxed and it is now more than time that they recevied a reward for thier patience

This doesn't change the fact that the GST is a "good" (better?) tax than income tax. So why not cut income taxes to equal the savings from the GST cut? Makes no sense.

[DerbyX]

Hyperion-the-evil Hyperion-the-evil:

I quoted you correctly and within context.

Your claim is essentially that Canada cannot afford to buy new militray equipment for our armed forces amongst other things, while at the sane time as cutting taxes and paying down the national debt. And the reason for this is that in your view our economy isn't "going up enough"

You are wrong

Events have and will continue to prove you wrong

If you are confused i sense that is natural within the Liberal Party mind-set so i suggest that you either think before you type, or re-read your own post

Time to expose your stupidity yet again.

You claim our economy is going up enough to:

a) Cut taxes (I'll assume you mean the exact amount of Harpers proposed cuts)
b) Buy all the new jets, helicopters, and warships we need.
c) Increase spending.
d) Pay down the debt. (since Harper is quoting a 10 billion payoff I'll use that figure)

You base this on what? You complete lack of knowledge about economics?

Our surplus this year was about 14 billion dollars. Of that Harper promised 10 billion towards debt repayment, a retroactive 0.5% tax income tax reduction (countering him raising it to that level) and a next year 1% GST rebate. Add to that the various corporate tax breaks and we get an estimated 60 billion tax relief or about 12 billion per year. An extra 2 billion/year to be put towards new purchases is a little slim considering Harper hasn't bought any of his promised purchases with the exception of the transport aircraft. Hell, he shelved the Liberal plan to buy new SAR aircraft and that alone was 3 billion. None of this includes the mounting cost in Afghanistan or the cost associated with increasing the #'s of military members. The cost of replacing the aging CF-18s alone will cost alot more then a couple of billion per year for the next 5 years.

None of that takes into account the spending inceases that are being demanded from all the other ministries and the provinces.

So my advising caution about promising too much seems perfectly reasonable but in your blind anti-Liberal jealousy you can't see that which is why you spouted the biggest of all Con fallacies, namely that the Libs were a "tax and spend" administartion.

I will expose your ignorance once again.

As Winnipeger posted:

-----Liberal----- | -------Conservative------
2004-05 2005-06 | 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09
$176.4B $175.2B | $189.0B $199.6B $206.8B

See which gov't is spending more?



Debt Reduction:
YEAR
1997 562,881
1998 559,922
1999 554,143
2000 539,885
2001 519,994
2002 511,946
2003 505,325
2004 496,180
2005 494,717
2006 481,499
2007 467,499

Note the largest drop coincided with the largest surplus under who? Yup, The Liberals.

Tax and Spend? I think not. The Chretien/Martin Liberals were the opposite of tax and spend. For that philosophy you can blame Trudeau & Mulroney.

In fact up till this year the entire surplus went to debt reduction. Is that right or wrong? Depends on your viewpoint but paying down the debt certainly wasn't a Con(or even CPC)-only affair.

That would be you being wrong yet again.

$1:

As for your doom and gloom about the Canadian Economy suddenly taking the whole point making an economy stable is to provide a healthy enivroment for private business (I know a dirty word for many Liberals) to invest here, create jobs here and thereby provide an income for families. You cannot expect to keep taxes high forever and simply hope that companies will invest here because they like the view.

Doom and gloom? Try reading. I said it wasn't going up enough to support everything mentioned. That isn't saying we are heading for doom and gloom. far from it.

Now your second mistake (from the above quote) is crying that the Liberals support high taxes and are the enemy of free enterprise. On every other thread you brain-washed Cons are also calling them stooges of "big buisness". The old Ultra-centralist commitalists in action again eh?

In the pocket of bay street and big buisness while being commies and the enemy of capitalism.

I guess that Dion wanting to keep the GST were it is and propose (alongside income tax relief) corporate tax cuts from 28% to 19% kinds puts a crimp in that theory eh?

That would be you being wrong again.

$1:

As far as you insinuation that Canada cannot afford militray hardware for the men and women who protect us , it would be the same to say that we cannot afford to fund our police forces, or provide body armour for the poilice to do thier jobs. In fact our economy is doing just fine now and in the past, and as a matter fact we can afford new equipment for our Armed forces since they not only protect us abroad but also at home.

Notice how I said new Jets, Helicopters, and Warships. Those big-ticket items are on an entirely different level of spending and will require a substantial financial commitment.

$1:

Canadians have been doing the job of being over-taxed and it is now more than time that they recevied a reward for thier patience

I didn't object to tax rebates but mearly that you cannot do all the 4 things I mentioned at the same time without one of them suffering.