[eureka]

You think so? The amount of Wind power and solar in Alberta is a drop in the bucket and the pious statements of intent are meaningless. The truth is that Alberta recently approved the first new coal plant in a decade. A Plant that will emit almost the equivalent of the supposed savings to be made from its CCS programme.

Harper has also said (through Kent) that he will not allow emission rules to hinder Tar Sands development.

Ontario has installed 8400 MW of clean energy since the McGuinty government came in in 2003. It will have phased out all its coal plants within three years. There are plans on the books for 10700 MW from wind, solar and biomass within six years.

Ypu really should get your head out of the "sand" and look at what is going on on the world.

[dino_bobba_renno]

eureka eureka:

You think so? The amount of Wind power and solar in Alberta is a drop in the bucket and the pious statements of intent are meaningless. The truth is that Alberta recently approved the first new coal plant in a decade. A Plant that will emit almost the equivalent of the supposed savings to be made from its CCS programme.

Harper has also said (through Kent) that he will not allow emission rules to hinder Tar Sands development.

Ontario has installed 8400 MW of clean energy since the McGuinty government came in in 2003. It will have phased out all its coal plants within three years. There are plans on the books for 10700 MW from wind, solar and biomass within six years.

Ypu really should get your head out of the "sand" and look at what is going on on the world.

And in the process ol McSquinty and co. have bankrupted the province to do so. How will Ontario pay for pay for those renewable energy projects when they phase those coal fired plants? I imagine those transfer payments Ontario now enjoys will come in handy when it comes time to pay the bill, you know the same transfer payments McSquinty recently complained werent enough.

Face it, Ontarios problems started roughly 9 years ago and they have only gotten worse since Mr. tax and spend has been in office. Killing off one of Canada's most profitable sectors isn't going to bring jobs back to an overly unionized and uncompetitive province that can't seem to come to terms with the current global realities it faces. Ontario is swimming in debt and yet this door knob wants to introduce extremely costly social programs like daycare and renewable energy projects!?! What the hell is wrong with you guys. You're broke, quit spending like a bunch of drunken sailors! You can't spend yourselves back into profitability. If it weren't for Alberta only way Ontario could afford to pay for these projects would be if they forced every unemployed person in you province to work on them in exchange for their poggey checks.

[eureka]

dino_bobba_renno dino_bobba_renno:

eureka eureka:

You think so? The amount of Wind power and solar in Alberta is a drop in the bucket and the pious statements of intent are meaningless. The truth is that Alberta recently approved the first new coal plant in a decade. A Plant that will emit almost the equivalent of the supposed savings to be made from its CCS programme.

Harper has also said (through Kent) that he will not allow emission rules to hinder Tar Sands development.

Ontario has installed 8400 MW of clean energy since the McGuinty government came in in 2003. It will have phased out all its coal plants within three years. There are plans on the books for 10700 MW from wind, solar and biomass within six years.

Ypu really should get your head out of the "sand" and look at what is going on on the world.

And in the process ol McSquinty and co. have bankrupted the province to do so. How will Ontario pay for pay for those renewable energy projects when they phase those coal fired plants? I imagine those transfer payments Ontario now enjoys will come in handy when it comes time to pay the bill, you know the same transfer payments McSquinty recently complained werent enough.

Face it, Ontarios problems started roughly 9 years ago and they have only gotten worse since Mr. tax and spend has been in office. Killing off one of Canada's most profitable sectors isn't going to bring jobs back to an overly unionized and uncompetitive province that can't seem to come to terms with the current global realities it faces. Ontario is swimming in debt and yet this door knob wants to introduce extremely costly social programs like daycare and renewable energy projects!?! What the hell is wrong with you guys. You're broke, quit spending like a bunch of drunken sailors! You can't spend yourselves back into profitability. If it weren't for Alberta only way Ontario could afford to pay for these projects would be if they forced every unemployed person in you province to work on them in exchange for their poggey checks.

First, I instantly dismiss the `tax and spend`mantra purveyors as having nothing to say worth listening to. It comes from the `borrow and spend`Party as an electoral tactic and is totally meaningless.

Mc Guinty has not bankrupted the province: not nearlt. What is putting greta pressure on Ontario is the combination of paying a disproportionate share of the National Pie and the Devastation to employment and economic production caused by, largely, the Oil Sands.

Ontario is neither overly unionised or uncompetitive. It began to be uncompetitive when that artificially inflated dollar seriously harmed its manufacturing sector.

Ontario`s internal problems are the creation of a government of the stripe that we now have federally and that has caused Albertans to think they are a superior political breed. Harris left a $5.6 billion deficit ( he turned a surplus into a deficit) but lied about having one for the purpose of an election. Just as Harper and Flaherty did in 2008 - Flaherty learned from his part in the Ontario fiasco.

Ontario needs to introduce daycare because the federal government (Harper) abrogated its responsibility; took the money set aside by Martin for the purpose and gave it to its corporate friends.

Renewable energy is not a social programme. It is something that will bring great environmental AND HEALTH benefits. It will create many times the number of jobs that the oil sands will create and it will save huge amounts of money by eliminating the negative effects of coal and oil.

And, if it were not for Ontario Alberta would still be a God forsaken hinterland with nothing but bison and fur trading routes.

[dino_bobba_renno]

eureka eureka:

dino_bobba_renno dino_bobba_renno:

eureka eureka:

You think so? The amount of Wind power and solar in Alberta is a drop in the bucket and the pious statements of intent are meaningless. The truth is that Alberta recently approved the first new coal plant in a decade. A Plant that will emit almost the equivalent of the supposed savings to be made from its CCS programme.

Harper has also said (through Kent) that he will not allow emission rules to hinder Tar Sands development.

Ontario has installed 8400 MW of clean energy since the McGuinty government came in in 2003. It will have phased out all its coal plants within three years. There are plans on the books for 10700 MW from wind, solar and biomass within six years.

Ypu really should get your head out of the "sand" and look at what is going on on the world.

And in the process ol McSquinty and co. have bankrupted the province to do so. How will Ontario pay for pay for those renewable energy projects when they phase those coal fired plants? I imagine those transfer payments Ontario now enjoys will come in handy when it comes time to pay the bill, you know the same transfer payments McSquinty recently complained werent enough.

Face it, Ontarios problems started roughly 9 years ago and they have only gotten worse since Mr. tax and spend has been in office. Killing off one of Canada's most profitable sectors isn't going to bring jobs back to an overly unionized and uncompetitive province that can't seem to come to terms with the current global realities it faces. Ontario is swimming in debt and yet this door knob wants to introduce extremely costly social programs like daycare and renewable energy projects!?! What the hell is wrong with you guys. You're broke, quit spending like a bunch of drunken sailors! You can't spend yourselves back into profitability. If it weren't for Alberta only way Ontario could afford to pay for these projects would be if they forced every unemployed person in you province to work on them in exchange for their poggey checks.

First, I instantly dismiss the `tax and spend`mantra purveyors as having nothing to say worth listening to. It comes from the `borrow and spend`Party as an electoral tactic and is totally meaningless.

Mc Guinty has not bankrupted the province: not nearlt. What is putting greta pressure on Ontario is the combination of paying a disproportionate share of the National Pie and the Devastation to employment and economic production caused by, largely, the Oil Sands.

Ontario is neither overly unionised or uncompetitive. It began to be uncompetitive when that artificially inflated dollar seriously harmed its manufacturing sector.

Ontario`s internal problems are the creation of a government of the stripe that we now have federally and that has caused Albertans to think they are a superior political breed. Harris left a $5.6 billion deficit ( he turned a surplus into a deficit) but lied about having one for the purpose of an election. Just as Harper and Flaherty did in 2008 - Flaherty learned from his part in the Ontario fiasco.

Ontario needs to introduce daycare because the federal government (Harper) abrogated its responsibility; took the money set aside by Martin for the purpose and gave it to its corporate friends.

Renewable energy is not a social programme. It is something that will bring great environmental AND HEALTH benefits. It will create many times the number of jobs that the oil sands will create and it will save huge amounts of money by eliminating the negative effects of coal and oil.

And, if it were not for Ontario Alberta would still be a God forsaken hinterland with nothing but bison and fur trading routes.

So your reasoning is to blame a provincial conservative government that hasn't been in power for over 9 years for Ontarios current woes. You might as well blame McDonald while you're at it. Your responses are just as juvenile as McSquintys. Guess what buttercup, the Oilsands aren't going any where so Ontario better learn to adapt to that petro dollar you're complaining about. Perhaps Ontario could invest in a provincial staffing agency that supplies workers to all the other provinces in Canada.

And on Ontario not being competitive, umm maybe take a look around. 8% + unemployment, ya I bet China is shaking in there boots wondering what they will do next to thwart the Ontario threat.

On Alberta thinking were better, sorry no we don't, we just want to viewed as equals. Not looked down upon by other provinces who think they are the centre of the universe even though they can't get own financial houses in order and who like to blame others for probelms they've inflicted on themselves.

Oh, I almost forgot to mention this. Since manufacturing sector was one of Ontarios biggest emitters you really should be thanking Alberta for its petro dollar. We did you a favor by eliminating all those carbon intensive manufacturing jobs which will help you guys save big time on health care in the future. Remember, its the environment and health of the average Ontarian that's important here

[saturn_656]

eureka eureka:

Mc Guinty has not bankrupted the province: not nearlt. What is putting greta pressure on Ontario is the combination of paying a disproportionate share of the National Pie and the Devastation to employment and economic production caused by, largely, the Oil Sands.

The oil sands didn't just appear out of mid freaking air. The dollar has been appreciating for years and if the Ontario government and businesses couldn't see that, plan for it, and adjust than the fault lies on them. Not Alberta. Not the oilsands.

$1:

Ontario is neither overly unionised or uncompetitive. It began to be uncompetitive when that artificially inflated dollar seriously harmed its manufacturing sector.

Nothing "artificial" about the value of the dollar. Canada's oil wealth counts for some of the increase of valuation, but the fall of the USD also plays a part.

A part which you conveniently ignore, as it doesn't help your... um... "position".

Having the CAD at or near parity with the USD is the new reality. Those businesses that adjust and compensate will thrive, those that don't, will die.

The McGuinty government, with its tax hiking ways and poor fiscal management skills, is not helping. You think skyrocketing power rates do anything good for the manufacturing sector?

$1:

Ontario`s internal problems are the creation of a government of the stripe that we now have federally and that has caused Albertans to think they are a superior political breed. Harris left a $5.6 billion deficit ( he turned a surplus into a deficit) but lied about having one for the purpose of an election. Just as Harper and Flaherty did in 2008 - Flaherty learned from his part in the Ontario fiasco.

Do you hit the sauce before you post?

Harris left a 5.5 billion dollar deficit (tiny compared to McGuinty government deficits) nine years ago and that why we are so hooped now?

McGuinty's deficits are bigger than those incurred under Harris, Eves, even the infamous Bob Rae!

$1:

Ontario needs to introduce daycare because the federal government (Harper) abrogated its responsibility; took the money set aside by Martin for the purpose and gave it to its corporate friends.

This makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

Ontario needs to introduce taxpayer funded daycare you say?

Ontario is incurring massive deficits. Ontario needs to live within its means. That means no more pricey social programs. Not only that, it means cutting back across the board. It means wage freezes. It means layoffs.

I want Ontario (my home) to dodge the iceberg, while you want to ram it at flank speed.

$1:

Renewable energy is not a social programme. It is something that will bring great environmental AND HEALTH benefits. It will create many times the number of jobs that the oil sands will create and it will save huge amounts of money by eliminating the negative effects of coal and oil.

For once you actually got something right. Ontario's policy on renewable energy isn't a social program. What it is, is a corporate subsidy. A subsidy we are forced to pay for through our rising taxes and insane hydro rates.

It is NOT saving any Ontarian money. FYI, the tens of thousands of green jobs? They are not materializing anywhere near the level McGuinty (mis)led everyone to believe.

[eureka]

I think the last two posters should spend a little time reviewing their situations and assessing where they need to upgrade their information and absorption skills.

Just a few points"

The deficit in Ontario is from the recession added to the inherited debt. The Rae deficit was from a worse recession and that deficit was being rapidly reduced before Harris came to office and squandered the repairs.

Canada is the only member of the OECD that does not have a national childcare programme. Even the US does have one of a sort. The OECD has roundly criticized Canada several times for that since EVERY study done show both economic and social benefits from such programmes.

The Ontario government that "has not been in power for nine years" is responsible for a good part of Ontario's "woes." It is responsible because it destroyed the revenue base and increased poverty by 50% over its term. It then went on to savage the healthcare and education systems and waste billions on its ideological causes.

This government has partly fixed the problems but has not been full able to do so, largely because of the stupidity and political naivete ofthe average voter. That voter has bought the propaganda of the neocons that taxes must constantly be reduced until government can no longer operate. Accordingly, it has not been possible to restore revenues.

Then we take the petro dollar. It takes an extraordinary political and economic innocence to believe the nonsense about that not being behind the loss of economic activity and jobs in Ontario.

It does not mean wage freezes and all the other austerity measures you favour. Those are what has driven the recessions of recent decades. Those impositions of the IMF are what has prevented some European nations from climbing back to stability.

There is not a shred of evidence to support those measures. There is massive evidence to support the need for stimulus in recessionary times. Social programmes; welfare, minimum wage and a host of other things need enhancing not cutting - and Pensions.

Focus on renewable is NOT a corporate subsidy. You can get your share if you had the initiative to apply the means. You can get paid for a solar panel or a wind turbine. Meantime, fossil fuels continue to be massively subsidized. Around the world those amount to between $three and five hundred billion depending on what are classified as direct and indirect. All have been massively funded since their beginnings. Coal not so much now except for the external subsidies in paying for the damages and health concerns.

Renewables receive only a fraction of what the traditional fuels get. For a much greater economic return.

The Canadian dollar has had not been abobe 90c. since about 1979 and it has appreciated from the 60plus range to above par in a decade. No manufacturing society can adjust to that. That appreciation has been almost entirely due to oil and it has devastated Ontario.

Perhaps the solution would be for Ontario to grow a separatist movement and put the fear of God into the rest of the country so that sense might return.

[PublicAnimalNo9]

eureka eureka:

You think so? The amount of Wind power and solar in Alberta is a drop in the bucket and the pious statements of intent are meaningless. The truth is that Alberta recently approved the first new coal plant in a decade. A Plant that will emit almost the equivalent of the supposed savings to be made from its CCS programme.

Harper has also said (through Kent) that he will not allow emission rules to hinder Tar Sands development.

Ontario has installed 8400 MW of clean energy since the McGuinty government came in in 2003. It will have phased out all its coal plants within three years. There are plans on the books for 10700 MW from wind, solar and biomass within six years.

Ypu really should get your head out of the "sand" and look at what is going on on the world.

You really should learn about how the grid works in Ontario, and how the various energy generators supply power to the grid. You also need to learn about what happens when supply exceeds demand. You never mention stuff like the number of gas fired plants that will be required to provide a balance for all the wind and solar. And here's the real kicker, you say McFly has installed 8400MW of clean energy since 2003. Where did he install it all? As of 2010, we have about 1250MW from wind and another 93MW from biomass.
McGuinty is an idiot bending to ideological pressure. If Ontario wants truly emission free hydro, we already have the nuclear and hydro-electric foundation to do so, without resorting to intermittent generating methods that will require MORE gas fired plants, both single cycle and double cycle.
For example, let's say there's a nice breezy day they want to take full advantage of. In order to prevent a system overload, they'll have to shut down or reduce generation at the existing nuclear and hydro-electric plants. In the case of nuclear, it can take as long as 5 hours to bring it back to it's normal generating levels after a reduction in production. If they shut it down, it takes 3 days to bring it back on line. Both methods are hard on the equipment as a result of wear and tear. Shutting down and restarting generation is especially hard on the machinery. Nuclear and hydro-electric don't lend themselves very well to dispatching hydro on demand. That's where gas fired plants come in. To maintain what has and will become an artificial flexibility with more wind and solar, we'll require more gas fired plants to be able to dispatch hydro where and when it's needed. As a result, the decrease in overall GHG emissions may be marginal at best. However, since nuclear and hydro-electric provide a steady, easily regulated power source as opposed to wind and solar, fewer gas fired plants would be needed.

Now, to compare the Alberta and Ontario numbers, Alberta has roughly half the wind capacity as Ontario, while only having a third of the population.
Considering their population size and their marginally higher reliance on coal and oil than Ontario, Alberta isn't nearly as bad as you're trying to make it out to be.
In 2010, Ontario only produced 5TWh less hydro from coal than Alberta and only 1TWh less hydro from oil than Alberta. That's not really much to brag about from McGuinty's prespective.

Just in, Seems OPG has inked a deal to rejuvenate all 4 reactors at Darlington.


Cool little site here http://media.cns-snc.ca/ontarioelectric ... icity.html

[dino_bobba_renno]

eureka eureka:

Focus on renewable is NOT a corporate subsidy. You can get your share if you had the initiative to apply the means. You can get paid for a solar panel or a wind turbine. Meantime, fossil fuels continue to be massively subsidized. Around the world those amount to between $three and five hundred billion depending on what are classified as direct and indirect. All have been massively funded since their beginnings. Coal not so much now except for the external subsidies in paying for the damages and health concerns.

Renewables receive only a fraction of what the traditional fuels get. For a much greater economic return.

The Canadian dollar has had not been abobe 90c. since about 1979 and it has appreciated from the 60plus range to above par in a decade. No manufacturing society can adjust to that. That appreciation has been almost entirely due to oil and it has devastated Ontario.

Perhaps the solution would be for Ontario to grow a separatist movement and put the fear of God into the rest of the country so that sense might return.

Maybe you should do your own research. There have been a couple studies now that have clearly shown that the addition of wind power was not required to offset the closure of the coal fired plants in ontario and they do not contribute in any meaningful way to the reduction of GHGs. Ontarians are paying for them through excessive hydro bills all the same though so who is the real net beneficiary? Clearly it's not the average Ontarian and since the government is spending money on these projects it's clearly not the government of Ontario.

http://whitherindustrialwindpower.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/co2-emissions-reductions-in-ont-elect-prod-with-appendix.pdf

In reality it's not wind power that will be replacing coal fired plants, it will be gas plants that do that. On behalf of Alberta I would like to thank you ahead of time for this, gas prices are low and we in Alberta are looking forward to Ontario increasing its demand for one of our chief exports .

You cant separate, you ARE Canada, remember. The rest of us are just a bunch of red neck, Newfie, pot smoking, French speaking wanna be's.

I think next we need to address the fact that Ontario needs to be doing more on the whole global warming issue. You do realize that Ontarios boreal forest is a massive carbon sink and Ontario up until this point in time really has nothing to address its management of this precous resource. For shame. I know Ontario is leading the country in unemployment but I'm sure you won't mind making some additional small sacrifices in the interests of the environment. What's a few more job loses compared to setting an example the rest of the world will want to follow.

[Yogi]

eureka eureka:

Perhaps the solution would be for Ontario to grow a separatist movement and put the fear of God into the rest of the country so that sense might return.

'Separate'! As in 'leave Confederation and leave us all alone'! "Fear of God"... indeed !




















" Leave your keys on the table, and don't let the door hit you in the ass on your way out"!

[eureka]

Oh dear! So much ignorance in such a little space!

You really need to read up on Wind Power and on what the various Canadian jurisdictions have in the works. As I said, Alberta has little and Ontario has a lot. Alberta has constructed a new coal plant. Ontario is closing its coal plants.

Wind power does not need gas backup. That is yesterday's fossil fuel claim. Interconnection and variety in renewable sources is all that is needed. Besides that storage technologies are rapidly maturing. Pu,ped storage is now quite significant in its capacity.

Germany, Denmark are already providing around 20% of their needs from wind power and they do not have gas backup.

I could go in to this in great depth and provide you with information from all those credible sources that are not promoting fossil fuels but I don't have time for that.

If you want to read some of the real arguments agents that are getting weaker as wp matures( try this site. http://bravenewclimate.com/ It is pro renewables but obsessed with nuclear and has several pieces arguing against wind. It is losing the battle as wp gains ground around the world.

"You cant separate, you ARE Canada, remember. The rest of us are just a bunch of red neck, Newfie, pot smoking, French speaking wanna be's."

Yes! If you remove the reference to Newfie. Newfies are, by and large, decent, hard working, sensible people.

As for Ontario doing something to reduce emissions, the only provinces of Canada with actual reduction plans are B.B., Manitoba, Quebec and Ontario: http://www.worldchanging.com/local/cana ... 08890.html

For Ontario's forests, it has for some time now had a tree palnting programme. the "50 million trees." That has been highly successful and far more are being planted now.

[saturn_656]

eureka eureka:

Oh dear! So much ignorance in such a little space!

Yes, I'm quite amazed you manage to fit it all in your little brain.

$1:

Wind power does not need gas backup.

You what do you do on those overcast, muggy days when the wind isn't blowing?

$1:

Germany, Denmark are already providing around 20% of their needs from wind power and they do not have gas backup.

Untrue and misleading.

Germany produces approx. 20% of its power from renewables, which include wind, solar, hydro and biomass.

Denmark does generate a large percentage of its total power from wind, but when the wind isn't blowing they import power from neighboring countries.

That is how they get away with no gas backup.

$1:

I could go in to this in great depth and provide you with information from all those credible sources that are not promoting fossil fuels but I don't have time for that.

Translation: I'm running out of crap to fling.

[2Cdo]

eureka eureka:

Oh dear! So much ignorance in such a little space!

You really need to read up on Wind Power and on what the various Canadian jurisdictions have in the works. As I said, Alberta has little and Ontario has a lot. Alberta has constructed a new coal plant. Ontario is closing its coal plants.

Wind power does not need gas backup. That is yesterday's fossil fuel claim. Interconnection and variety in renewable sources is all that is needed. Besides that storage technologies are rapidly maturing. Pu,ped storage is now quite significant in its capacity.

Germany, Denmark are already providing around 20% of their needs from wind power and they do not have gas backup.

I could go in to this in great depth and provide you with information from all those credible sources that are not promoting fossil fuels but I don't have time for that.

If you want to read some of the real arguments agents that are getting weaker as wp matures( try this site. http://bravenewclimate.com/ It is pro renewables but obsessed with nuclear and has several pieces arguing against wind. It is losing the battle as wp gains ground around the world.

"You cant separate, you ARE Canada, remember. The rest of us are just a bunch of red neck, Newfie, pot smoking, French speaking wanna be's."

Yes! If you remove the reference to Newfie. Newfies are, by and large, decent, hard working, sensible people.

As for Ontario doing something to reduce emissions, the only provinces of Canada with actual reduction plans are B.B., Manitoba, Quebec and Ontario: http://www.worldchanging.com/local/cana ... 08890.html

For Ontario's forests, it has for some time now had a tree palnting programme. the "50 million trees." That has been highly successful and far more are being planted now.

[Yogi]

"Ontario needs Albertas oilssands"

http://www.edmontonsun.com/2012/02/27/o ... s-oilsands

[FieryVulpine]

saturn_656 saturn_656:

Translation: I'm running out of crap to fling.

Either that or "I don't know what the hell I'm talking about so I'll make shit up."

[eureka]

The Edmonton Sun, no less! So many strawmen. So many logical fallacies and disconnects.

Interestingly, while enjoying the Great Canadian Pastime of relaxing in Tim Horton's yesterday, I happened on a copy of something I was not familiar with. It was the Toronto Sun. Its editorial was similar but sillier and even more poorly written.

To amuse myself last night I dashed off a 5/600 word response. It is not likely to be published since the Sun editors are only capable of absorbing "byte" sized pieces of information and the paper caters to readers who want no more than that expressed in twitter-like grammar and intelligence.

I was so impressed with the 65,000 job claim over 25 years. That will cover about one fifth of the jobs that are already lost due to the oil sands. It will compensate for a few of the jobs that are going to be lost in the future for the same cause.

The editors of the Sun still hare several years behind on Wind Power. Wind Power is now competitive with coal and rapidly gaining on oil and gas. In a very few years it will be cheaper than any of those.

Solar is not there yet but new technologies for thinner and cheaper panels are making great reductions in those costs.