[EyeBrock]

desertdude desertdude:

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

More

The Crown rests its case.

[commanderkai]

Curtman Curtman:

So where is Israel's border? And where will it be next year? That's the issue the world has said no to.

Israel's border is wherever Israel declares it to be. Most likely, where the Israeli border wall is built. The Palestinians basically blew their chances for a pre-67 border, or something close to it, after the Second Intifada and the Oslo Accords. The clusterfuck after the Gaza pullout certainly wasn't helpful either.

It's rather interesting how your little map doesn't mention how "Palestinian lands" kept on shrinking as Israel was continually attacked or provoked into war by the Palestinians and their Arab allies. Nah, just imply something or other about greedy Jews or somesuch.

Curtman Curtman:

Well, it's none of my business what they do to each other until my government pledges allegiance to one of them on my behalf. Clearly Israel has used up its victim status. 138 to 9 is very decisive. Pretty soon it'll just be Canada and Micronesia until the Harperites leave Ottawa.

OH! I see, it's another attempt to create an anti-Harper jerkoff thread! So the overly anti-Israel bias is purely coincidental to your posts? So again, this isn't really about Harper, this is about you. Your views. So, again, pray tell, why are your posts so anti-Israel? Certainly a politically neutral view can realize that Israel doesn't bomb residential neighborhoods because they're bored, or using obviously pro-Palestinian propaganda isn't exactly neutral?

Plus, I'm sorry, considering Canada hasn't change it's official policy dealing with settlements (I've linked to this as well), nor did Canada send military assistance to Israel, nor anything else except some public statements supporting the state of Israel somehow means Harper is kissing Israel's ass.

[andyt]

It's in Israel's self-interest to leave the Palestinians a viable piece of land to build their state on. Otherwise, what will Israel do, drive them into the Jordan? (Hard to play the victim card in that case) Incorporate them into greater Israel? (Demographic time bomb).

Build the wall more or less to the 67 border. Close the settlements outside this wall. Leave old Jerusalem as a possibility to be an international city at some point in the future. Have no more truck nor trade with the Palestinians. If they launch rockets in that case, feel free to kick as much ass an necessary.

But Israel can't claim it's for peace while gobbling up more and more territory. That's not peace, that's war.

[PublicAnimalNo9]

Curtman Curtman:

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

Oh yeah, those poor Palestinians. They started the shit with Israel, have kept at it for 65 years and now we should feel sorry for them because Israel has been clamping down on them?

The Palestinians started what now?

Ugh, the most overused, abused and irrelevant graphic about this whole situation.
Let's look at the second map, that was the UN partition plan, nobody's fault yet.
Now, let's look at why the map keeps changing.

TIMELINE:
1948 Arab–Israeli War (November 1947 - July 1949) - Started as 6 months of civil war between Jewish and Arab militias at the end of the British Mandate of Palestine and turned into a regular war after the declaration of independence of Israel and the intervention of several Arab armies. In its conclusion, a set of agreements were signed between Israel, Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, and Syria, called the 1949 Armistice Agreements, which established the armistice lines between Israel and its neighbours, also known as the Green Line.

Reprisal operations (1950s - 1960s) - Military operations carried out by the Israel Defense Forces during the 1950s and 1960s. These actions were in response to constant fedayeen during which Arab guerillas infiltrated from Syria, Egypt, and Jordan into Israel to carry out attacks against Israeli civilians and soldiers. The policy of the reprisal operations was exceptional due to Israel's declared aim of getting a high 'blood cost' among the enemy side which was believed to be necessary in order to deter them from committing future attacks.

Suez Crisis (October 1956) - A military attack on Egypt by Britain, France, and Israel, beginning on 29 October 1956, with the intention to occupy the Sinai Peninsula and to take over the Suez Canal. The attack followed Egypt's decision of 26 July 1956 to nationalize the Suez Canal after the withdrawal of an offer by Britain and the United States to fund the building of the Aswan Dam. Although the Israeli invasion of the Sinai was successful, the US and USSR forced it to retreat. Even so, Israel managed to re-open the Straits of Tiran and pacified its southern border.

Six-Day War (June 1967) - Fought between Israel and Arab neighbors Egypt, Jordan, and Syria. The nations of Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Algeria, and others also contributed troops and arms to the Arab forces. Following the war, the territory held by Israel expanded significantly ("The Purple Line") : The West Bank (including East Jerusalem) from Jordan, Golan Heights from Syria, Sinai, and Gaza from Egypt.

War of Attrition (1967–1970) - A limited war fought between the Israeli military and forces of the Egyptian Republic, the USSR, Jordan, Syria, and the Palestine Liberation Organization from 1967 to 1970. It was initiated by the Egyptians as a way of recapturing the Sinai from the Israelis, who had been in control of the territory since the mid-1967 Six-Day War. The hostilities ended with a ceasefire signed between the countries in 1970 with frontiers remaining in the same place as when the war began.

Yom Kippur War (October 1973) - Fought from October 6 to October 26, 1973 by a coalition of Arab states led by Egypt and Syria against Israel as a way of recapturing part of the territories which they lost to the Israelis back in the Six-Day War. The war began with a surprise joint attack by Egypt and Syria on the Jewish holiday of Yom Kippur. Egypt and Syria crossed the cease-fire lines in the Sinai and Golan Heights, respectively. Eventually Arab forces were defeated by Israel and there were no significant territorial changes.

Palestinian insurgency in South Lebanon (1971-1982) - PLO relocate to South Lebanon from Jordan and stage attacks on the Galilee and as a base for international operations. In 1978, Israel launches Operation Litani - the first Israeli large-scale invasion of Lebanon, which was carried out by the Israel Defense Forces in order to expel PLO forces from the territory. Continuing ground and rocket attacks, and Israeli retaliations, eventually escalate into the 1982 War.

1982 Lebanon War (1982) - Began in 6 June 1982, when the Israel Defense Forces invaded southern Lebanon to expel the PLO from the territory. The Government of Israel ordered the invasion as a response to the assassination attempt against Israel's ambassador to the United Kingdom, Shlomo Argov, by the Abu Nidal Organization and due to the constant terror attacks on northern Israel made by the Palestinian guerilla organizations which resided in Lebanon. The war resulted in the expulsion of the PLO from Lebanon and created an Israeli Security Zone in southern Lebanon.

South Lebanon conflict (1982–2000) - Nearly 20 years of warfare between the Israel Defense Force and its Lebanese proxy militias with Lebanese Muslim guerrilla, led by Iranian-backed Hezbollah, within what was defined by Israelis as the "Security Zone" in South Lebanon.

First Intifada (1987–1993) - First large-scale Palestinian uprising against Israel in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip.
Second Intifada (2000–2005) - Second Palestinian uprising, a period of intensified violence, which began in late September 2000.

2006 Lebanon War (summer 2006) - Began as a military operation in response to the abduction of two Israeli reserve soldiers by the Hezbollah. The operation gradually strengthened, to become a wider confrontation. The principal participants were Hezbollah paramilitary forces and the Israeli military. The conflict started on 12 July 2006 and continued until a United Nations-brokered ceasefire went into effect on 14 August 2006, though it formally ended on 8 September 2006, when Israel lifted its naval blockade of Lebanon. The war resulted in the pacification of southern Lebanon and in the weakness of the Hezbollah (which suffered serious casualties but managed to survive the Israeli onslaught).

Gaza War (December 2008 - January 2009) - Three-week armed conflict between Israel and Hamas during the winter of 2008–2009. In an escalation of the ongoing Israeli–Palestinian conflict, Israel responded to ongoing rocket fire from the Gaza Strip with military force in an action titled "Operation Cast Lead". Israel opened the attack with a surprise air strike on December 27, 2008. Israel's stated aim was to stop such rocket fire from and the import of arms into Gaza. Israeli forces attacked military and civilian targets, police stations, and government buildings in the opening assault. Israel declared an end to the conflict on January 18 and completed its withdrawal on January 21, 2009.

Operation Pillar of Defense (Ongoing) - Military offensive on the Gaza Strip.

Damn Israelis, making those other countries and the PALs attack them merely for existing.

Surely you weren't suggesting by the graphic you posted that Israel started it all now were you?

[martin14]

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

Surely you weren't suggesting by the graphic you posted that Israel started it all now were you?

That graphic is such a piece of shit it's laughable.

But Israel always starts everything, just because they exist.

[ShepherdsDog]

The map is a crock of shit from the beginning as this was the British Mandate of Palestine



What fuckwit posted was just the Israeli portion of the Mandate, not shocked that he doesn't know what it really was. The two state division was set up with the Arabs being given the lion's share(85% of the Mandate). The remaining land wasn't supposed to be subdivided again into two more states. Ahhh but what do expect from someone who likely had to beg for a 50R. The public system failed to educate him, so why should we bother. The land was captured from the Jordanians during conflict, not from some other state. Israel and Jordan(which was Trans Jordan before they lost the West Bank to Israel) were the only two Palestinian states intended.

This in fact was the original deal for dividing the Palestinian Mandate(the original British Mandate in its entirety also included Iraq) The area now occupied by Jordan and Israel were the Palestinian component, not just the state of Israel, as many mistakenly believe. It's interesting that some 70 to 80% of the Jordanian population claim to be Palestinian.

[Curtman]

More excuses for the settlements?

Pathetic.

[Curtman]

UK and France summon Israeli envoys in settlements row

$1:

Britain and France have both summoned Israeli ambassadors in protest at Israel's decision to approve the construction of 3,000 new homes in the West Bank and East Jerusalem.

The UK said the move would cast doubt on Israel's "stated commitment to achieving peace with the Palestinians".

Israel authorised the 3,000 additional housing units a day after the UN voted to upgrade Palestinian status.

The UN warned the homes would be "an almost fatal blow" to peace hopes.

Sweden also summoned the Israeli ambassador, while Russia and Germany expressed their opposition to the settlement plans.

'Preliminary zoning'
In a statement, the UK Foreign Office said it was urging Israel to reconsider, and threatened a "strong reaction" if the homes went ahead.

It said: "We deplore the recent Israeli government decision to build 3,000 new housing units and unfreeze development in the E1 block. This threatens the viability of the two state solution."

Plans for construction in the E1 area - between Jerusalem and the West Bank settlement of Maaleh Adumim - are strongly opposed by Palestinians, who say such development will prevent the creation of a contiguous Palestinian state.

UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon earlier warned that the E1 plans would have to be rescinded.

"It would represent an almost fatal blow to remaining chances of securing a two-state solution," Mr Ban said.

An Israeli official has described the proposals in the E1 zone as "preliminary zoning and planning work".

The Israeli envoy to Paris was summoned to a meeting on Monday morning, French foreign ministry spokesman, Philippe Lalliot, said in a statement.

The BBC's Peter Biles says the UK is coordinating closely with France in sending a clear warning signal to Israel, but he says a suggestion in the Israeli press that Britain and France may recall their ambassadors in protest seems unlikely at this stage.

German government spokesman Steffen Seibert said in Berlin: "Israel is undermining faith in its willingness to negotiate and the geographic space for a future Palestinian state, which must be the basis for a two-state solution, is disappearing."

The Russian foreign ministry website said the move would have "a most adverse impact" on peace.

Israel has condemned the Palestinians' diplomatic move at the UN as a "gross violation" of previous agreements with Israel.

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu also brushed off criticism of the settlement plans.

"We will carry on building in Jerusalem and in all the places that are on the map of Israel's strategic interests," he said.

About 500,000 Jews live in more than 100 settlements built since the occupation of the West Bank and East Jerusalem.

The settlements are considered illegal under international law, though Israel disputes this.

Two decades of on-off negotiations between Israel and the Palestinian Authority have failed to produce a permanent settlement, with the latest round of direct negotiations breaking down in 2010.

[ShepherdsDog]

Curtman Curtman:

More excuses for the settlements?

Pathetic.

Imagine that using facts...I know it boggles your mind doesn't it. You stick to your bullshit maps and I'll stick to historical fact. Typical of you uneducated GED scholars.

[Curtman]

ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:

Curtman Curtman:

More excuses for the settlements?

Pathetic.

Imagine that using facts...I know it boggles your mind doesn't it. You stick to your bullshit maps and I'll stick to historical fact. Typical of you uneducated GED scholars.

Fact: Settlements are a unilateral move that is harmful to a two state solution.

[martin14]

Curtman Curtman:

ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:

Curtman Curtman:

More excuses for the settlements?

Pathetic.

Imagine that using facts...I know it boggles your mind doesn't it. You stick to your bullshit maps and I'll stick to historical fact. Typical of you uneducated GED scholars.

Fact: Settlements are a unilateral move that is harmful to a two state solution.

So are terrorist attacks.

Much worse, actually.

[andyt]

martin14 martin14:

So are terrorist attacks.

Much worse, actually.

How so? How does it get any worse than taking land? That's what war is all about. Taking land = war.

[Curtman]

martin14 martin14:

Curtman Curtman:

Fact: Settlements are a unilateral move that is harmful to a two state solution.

So are terrorist attacks.

Much worse, actually.

If they attack a settlement, they are attacking an invading force. If the settlers are trained IDF soldiers, this becomes very very hard to deny doesn't it?

[desertdude]

Rhetoric and what about-ery arguments are all what the anti Palestinians have left in their arsenal. Surprising none of them ever comment on the on going land grab.

[andyt]

Actually many do, and have all sorts of reasons why it's legit. The one argument that's hard to counter is that Israel won all the wars where it was attacked, and if the Arabs don't want to lose that land, don't attack Israel. I have some sympathy for that argument, but counter it with the idea that it's in Israel's self-interest to give the Palestinians something worth losing - ie their own state.